Learflyer

That was a fastball right over the plate and I won't touch it.

UAL T38 Phlyer

Curious, as I don't know: Hoss, is he viewed as a voice of (traditional) reason, or a contributor to the "Go to the Job Fair" mentality?

Airhoss

I have no idea. I know BK, I see him on a weekly basis but we don't talk shop.

Regularguy

Dumb comment and irrelevant, I would not have chosen that either. Now would I own or manage a garbage company? Yes and I believe there are more than a few who women do work at the upper levels of 'Waste Management."

The question our culture brings up in respect to women in aviation is why aren't more attracted to the job? There just aren't the same percentage of women working at becoming professional aviators.

Whiplash6

If anyone needs to sell their fast pass I'm interested.

popcorn

Okay, look. Despite John Carr's insistence that I'm a jerk who thinks there's massive discrimination, that's really not what I'm saying per se. I think simple economics and the unpredictability of this industry do play a huge role in barring or discouraging women to enter it. I think gender bias plays a role too. Quite simply, little girls and teenage women generally aren't steered toward these type of jobs. And yes, desire to have a family also plays a huge role. Believe me, it's a very difficult balance, only possible with a spouse who also has a flexible job.

The type of discrimination I was referring to does exist though. Because of the small numbers of female pilots, women have more visibility. You notice the females, the males are just another uniform in the crowd. Everyone has a story about "that girl who couldn't fly". They probably flew with scores of males who sucked, but didn't stand out. Male privilege is a real thing. It's a fact that these perceptions and biases force female pilots to work that much harder, because no one wants to be labeled "that girl that can't fly and is only here because she's a girl". Male pilots can be mediocre all day, but if a female flies that way, she gets the stigma. I've personally witnessed this phenomenon when peers discussed some African American pilots too.

I'm a member of a female pilot group on Facebook that has over 6000 members. Stories abound all day of part 91 (corporate) chief pilots who are very vocal that they don't hire female pilots "because they are just going to take your type rating then go have a baby". These attitudes persist. Don't think for one minute that some airline recruiters don't also rationalize this way. If you claim there's no bias whatsoever against female pilots, you're just part of the problem, and I won't open your mind.

Now this thread was originally about job fairs being a racket, and we got off on a tangent, but I see it as all related. We must admit that there ARE SOME inherent biases against minorities, women, and gays in airline hiring. These groups were formed to support and advance these groups in aviation. White males may see that as unfair, but i would remind them that they still get 90% of airline new hire class seats. Let's be honest with ourselves. The only reason they care about this issue at all is that they see these groups giving "their" seat to someone less deserving just because of their diversity attributes. That is the bias talking. Everyone applying to an airline must meet the same minimums. What's "competitive" is a moving target. Military pilots tend to be extremely low time, yet are quite desirable because of their training. RJ PICs with 10,000 hours are struggling to get a call. It's no different for members of these diversity groups. The only difference is that these groups help get their voices from getting lost in the other 10,000 apps. Airline hiring isn't a zero sum game. Just because UAL announces they are going to hire 665 pilots, that doesn't mean there's exactly that many spots. Percentage hiring died in the 90s with the lawsuit John Carr mentioned, and it wasn't fair.

But that's not what we are talking about here. Job fairs simply give a voice to those who may have had less opportunities and higher obstacles to get noticed in the fray. Without diversity programs, statistically speaking, minority hiring would probably be a lot less than current given the fact that almost all of the applicants are white males, and the non white males are lost in the sea of applications (and it's actually illegal to consider age, race, or gender in hiring). What corrupted this was the others flooding in and demanding a fast pass. Now those voices are again lost in the fray, so there's no point in the airlines spending the money to go to them.

Learflyer

I've seen it at my own small 135 company. There have been at least 20-25 women that have left here and all are now at DL/UAL/AK etc. again. For the women that want to get into aviation, there is no better time. Same for minorities.

The women/minorities aren't necessarily getting the jobs over honkies, but they sure are getting interviewed first. That's a fact jack...or Jill.


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Winston

A few things:

- if I or one of my children were to go under the knife tomorrow for some incredibly technical medical procedure, I wouldn't care if s/he were black, brown, yellow, was married to someone their own gender, prayed to allah, was an atheist, or dressed up like furry animals on their time off: I want the best qualified person for the job. I do not want someone who just met the minimums and was given extra promotion and exposure (at the expense of more qualified/experienced others of any background) because they identified as part of a class that is underrepresented in the industry. To think otherwise is insane (and frankly, bigoted). I can guarantee our paying passengers feel the same way about someone who is going to guide them through that dark and stormy approach.

- don't for a minute think that all minority classes want or need a leg up like you do. My wife is a multi-decade pilot and never joined WAI out of distaste for the organization. She wanted nothing to do with it and wanted to face every challenge in her career on her own two feet without the "old boys nework" hooking her up and giving her short cuts just because she had a vagina. I personally witnessed her being harassed and occlusionaly mocked by those promoting that group for not joining in and taking advantage of the leg-up. Guess what? She got her shot, interviewed, and became an airline pilot. She didn't NEED any extra credit or exemptions, and wouldn't have been able to live with herself if she did. I respect her tremendously as a professional because of that.

- the more we insist upon identifying ourselves as sub-group minority groups, the longer the racist, sexist, bigots of the world will be able to use those distinctions to their own ends. Affirmative action only exacerbates the problem, because as even my 7 year old knows: two wrongs don't make a right.

The only way to make our profession and our society better is to move on.

Fletch727

You do realize this kind of common sense takes away the identity of those who think they need to champion these causes, or who refuse to see themselves as anything but victims of society. You will see their replies shortly, not only justifying all of these groups that keep the divisions active and strong, but will then attack and attempt to belittle anyone who has an opinion other than how they perceive society should be. Otherwise, you are racist, fascist, xenophobic, homophobic, blah, blah, blah... and my favorite - a bigot. 99% of those who use this word have not looked up its definition in Websters dictionary and lack the ability to see or understand that it actually more so applies to them than to whomever they are directing it to.

detpilot

True... things would be better is we all moved on. Just like the world would be better if there were no guns.

But since there are still racist/sexist people in positions of authority with regard to hiring, and since there is an inherent human urge to surround yourself with people who look and think like you, then there is still a need for these organizations. Just like there is still a need for"good guys with guns."

The fact is, only a member of the majority has the benefit of pretending these problems don't exist. You'd have to put yourself in some uncomfortable shoes to realize that there still ARE barriers to minorities getting into aviation. Barriers that dont exist for the majority. Because you don't "look" like a pilot.

Remember how you felt as a young pilot, having to prove yourself because you look "too" young? Dealing with passenger's annoying comments? That's one small thing minority pilots have to deal with, but it never goes away with age.

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