John Carr

There WAS a time where "we simply didn't know it was an option" was a viable statement.

Sorry, it's simply NOT the way it is anymore.

As stated multiple times, in mulitiple threads, on multiple forums/mediums, outside the majority demographic people simply don't purse the piloting profession as much and inside the majority demographics.

Equality means an equal chance, NOT AN EQUAL OUTCOME.

Seriously, do we need to reference the lawsuit at the UAL of old? Perfect example of people that were given an equal outcome, with a much more than equal chance. All for the sake of "diversity/getting the numbers up".

popcorn

Maybe I am, maybe i'm not, but looking at your posting history, I doubt i am. Nevertheless, cheers, and have a great day.

Regularguy

When we start to get into gender issues and say stuff like this:

"As I pointed out before, women make up about 5% of airline pilots." and "Reasons include societal norms and gender biases in upbringing."

I cringe in these post modern days. Why? Because somethings wrong with that thinking.

Women make up 34% of all doctors in 2016, and that includes the really old guy force of doctors.

Distribution of Physicians by Gender | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

In 2015 women make up 48% of the Med school graduates.

Distribution of Medical School Graduates by Gender | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

According to the ABA (Bar Association) in 2015 women made up 35% of the Lawyers.

Additionally they make up 47% of the Law School students since 2011

https://www.americanbar.org/content/...thcheckdam.pdf

For MBA Students women have reached parity and exceed men in these programs:

According to the 2015 GMAC Application Trends Survey, which tracked responses from 426 MBA programs, the proportion of women represented in the applicant pools for all programs in 2015 has grown since 2011, with the exception of the Master in Accounting program, which remained flat. The GMAC report found women made up the majority of applicants in three programs:
Master in Marketing and Communications (62%)
Master of Accounting (57%)
Master in Management (55%)

Women Now Make Up 40% of Students at Top MBA Programs | Fortune.com

A large number of our Major Airline pilots come from the military and these days the women at the Air Force Academy are growing in percent, 22% female.

United States Air Force Academy - Male Female Ratio


So why is there only 5% of the airline pilots women these days (if that number is correct and includes the regionals)? Yet the percentage is growing almost parity in other major professions?

Could the child rearing mentioned be steering women towards Medicine, Law and MBA over the lowly job of commanding an airplane?

Women are making the effort to excel in the top professions, but why are the numbers so small for airline pilots?


Five decades of female pilots statistics in the United States. How did we do?

So where were we in 2010? There were 27,451 women holding an “other-than-student” pilot certificate in the United States. This number has remained virtually unchanged from its 26,896 value in 1980 (chart – Female Pilots Statistics 1960-2010). The percentage of female pilots is 5.39% (table – All Pilots Statistics 1960-2010).

Over the last five decades, most of the female pilot population growth took place between 1960 and 1980, a time when a strong feminist message encouraged women to try activities previously perceived as reserved to men. During those two decades, the number of female pilots went from 4,218 to 26,896 and the number of women holding a for-hire pilot certificate went from 763 to 4,473 (chart – Female Pilots Statistics 1960-2010).

When we compare the progress of commercial female pilots to other professions previously male dominated, the progress seems dismal. Female air traffic controllers now represent 26% of the air traffic controller population. Female flight dispatchers stand at nearly 18% of the people working in this field. Even female aerospace engineers have made greater progress. Virtually non-existent in 1960, the percentage of women making a living as aerospace engineers reached 9.2% in 2010.

Interestingly, the percentage of commercial female pilots is half of the percentage of female boat captains and operators (8.2%), a quarter of the percentage of female police and sheriff’s patrol officers (15%), and about one eighth of the percentage of female doctors and surgeons (31.8%).

Cost issues apply equally to male and female pilot candidates

Why such slow progress? The cost of training is often advanced as the culprit. The facts. The cost of a flight training lesson in a 2-seat airplane with fuel and instructor has not increased tremendously over the decades. Such flight lesson used to cost between $10 and $15 ($73-$110 in 2010 dollars) in 1960, between $20 and $25 ($115-$143 in 2010 dollars) in 1970, and between $30 and $35 ($85-$100 in 2010 dollars) in 1980, a cost low that was maintained until recently. Today, a lesson in a similar airplane averages between $130 and $160 (chart – Cost of Flying 1960-2010).

Read the whole article; they place blame on male instructors in one spot.

popcorn

Great finds! Google definitely is your friend!

As for your last sentence, it could be that this profession, unlike most others, requires long periods away from home. And according to the numbers you posted, in almost every profession, males still dominate, and the primary income earner of a household, the male professional, is less likely to be the one who gives up a very lucrative career to raise children. That doesn't even count the actual child rearing phase, which he can't perform.

popcorn

But yes, this has become quite tangential. Got to get back to my housework. Peace.

John Carr

Sadly, the most valid answer to that question would be answered by asking THOSE SPECIFIC WOMEN that went into all those other professions and didn't choose airline pilot.

But I would be hard pressed to believe the answer would be "because I felt like I was descimiates against"

Garbage man pays pretty good, especially for non skilled/no college. Weird, women don't seem to choose that much either.....

svergin

Ok you were doing a good job until this. I'm raising the BS flag. We are talking specifically about airline pilots. Can you please show me a pay scale in aviation where women and men are on different pay rates? The idea that women airline pilots are paid less by averaging all airline pilots, which you can't do because there are more women entering the field than ever before, so more are at the bottom. Not because they are women, but because they are just starting out. Its like that in any field where women are making strides, their aggregate pay is less, not because of bias, but because they haven't had enough time to ascend to higher paying positions.

Also I just checked the last COLA list published. Although women are only about 5% of pilots, almost 20% of all COLA requests were from women pilots. So women are apparently taking more time off from work than men (and making less money apparently). Also I went through many BES lists and lo and behold I find far more than 5% of the top NB FO positions to be women. In one base the #1 and #3 NB FOs are both women who live in base. They can easily hold lines as 320, 737, 756 Captains in their base. Their male peers are WB FO or Captains, and making more money because they are in higher paying seats and not taking COLA or using their seniority to drop trips.

So the myth that women pilots are paid less, and all the stats are false. Women are paid the same for the same work, and enough of them are choosing to work less, and enough men choosing to work more, to make the aggregate numbers look like its intentional.

John Carr

Anyone think it's funny that when certain topics come up that are seen as controversial or more charged than others, you'll have posters with new/recent join dates?

popcorn

You're exactly right. And these women may be in lower paying seats BECAUSE they had to refuse upgrade (preserve relative seniority in order to bid flexible schedules) and take all that time off for family care. Which is exactly what I was referring to. And our industry is one of the most equal in terms of pay. The disparity in the other professions is much worse.

John Carr

Sigh.........

No one forced them.

NOTHNG says that they cant bid/hold the seat, THEN take time off, what have you.

I mean, all those white males that are in the WB FO seat and are the bread winners but really like the schedule for time at home with the family have to "refuse" upgrade too