nitefr8dog

Just follow the flow it's pretty easy...scheduling does to. Never had a problem....

Makinitup

The time that you are sitting R2/3 is available time as spelled out in the contract and not governed by the FAA.

What you and others are doing is calling both available and show/flight time as duty. Only the later is duty and falls under the FARs although that can be limited per the contract depending on when assigned in your available time.

From the time you are notified you have 2 hours until you need to show, and that is a hard number. If you want to show earlier that’s on you. No you can’t go drinking or not answer the phone but you don’t have to be sitting there in your uniform ready to go as if your on R1. I carry a packed bag and a fresh uniform in my car and do what I want with the knowledge that I need to be able to show at CVG in 2 hrs. so there are some limits.

You could be required to show 15+59 hrs into you available time and then be on duty for 8 hrs but you aren’t working a 23+59 hr day and is not illegal per our contract or the FARs.

Like nightfr8 said follow the flow chart as scheduling does and all goes well.

woog315

It doesn't matter what the "flow chart" says, the FAA has repeatedly ruled that being required to answer calls then report for duty in less than 10 hours means you are ON DUTY while waiting for the phone to ring, yet the company claims we are not on duty. The FAA doesn't evenly enforce this rule because frankly a lot of their POIs aren't clear on it and it is a pretty toothless organization in the supplemental 121 and 135 world. "Duty" has been defined in multiple interpretation letters in both the 135 and 121 world and its always the same answer, here's just a couple of them-

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

key quotes - "If the pilot is required to answer the ringing telephone, then the entire period that pilot was under such obligation is not part of the 'rest period' - even if the company does not call during that period."

"To reemphasize-- under no circumstances is a pilot obligated to answer the telephone if the pilot is considered to be on rest. It appears that some people overlook the voluntary nature of receiving phone calls"

ABX's reserve availability time should be shortened to be in compliance with regs.

ACMItrash

100% correct but you can't tell someone the FARS are more restrictive than the contract. Some refuse to believe times have changed and the flow chart needs to be updated for recent faa interpretation! Being on call for 16 hours then getting an assignment at 15:59 for 8 hours is not what happens in the rest of the industry and people at regionals need to be aware that they will be subject to that which they currently are not!

point432

Exactly!!! Don’t worry, ABX has all the receipts.


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Makinitup

The FARs are the minimums our contract and FOM is and must be at least as restrictive if not more so. And is more restrictive depending on the point of time you are assigned to a trip while sitting R2/3.

The two letters of interpretation are not applicable to ABX operations. We operate under part 121 Supplemental operations. One of your links is for Part 135 and the other while Part 121 is for Subpart Q - Domestic operations specifically rest requirements. Big difference. Duty time limits for Supplemental ops are under 121 subpart S not subpart Q.

You may also want to review FAR part 91.1057 which defines Reserve Status and clearly states Reserve status is not part of any duty period or rest period.

I think the person refusing to believe times have changed are those that get their information from social media and friends instead of the actual manuals that govern us.

Jurassic Jet

Well isn’t that rich? You chastise someone for referencing things that ‘you’ don’t think apply and then immediately reference the 91.1000’s which is applicable to Part 91 fractional ownership programs. You can’t make this up!

§ 91.1001 Applicability.
(a) This subpart prescribes rules, in addition to those prescribed in other subparts of this part, that apply to fractional owners and fractional ownership program managers...

woog315

*groan* why dont you go ahead and call us snowflakes also.

Duty and rest have been defined over and over and its always the same- required reserve availability cannot count as rest. Are you arguing that the FAA thinks rest is less important at a supplemental 121 carrier than an on-demand 135 carrier? Really? In the 121 letter, they are defining the word 'rest' and what it means across all FARs.

Heres another quote for you- "The FAA has consistently stated through legal interpretations that 'rest' under the FARs is 1) a continuous period of time. 2) determined prospectively 3) during which the crewmember is free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from work or freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arrive."

Note they are specifically defining rest under the FARs (I'm pretty sure we operate under the FARs, right? I think I read that somewhere on facebook)

If you believe 121 supplemental operations have required rest periods, then that is how 'rest' is defined by the FAA. There's no getting around that. (not even with 91k rules! ???)

All this said, Atlas 'complies' with rest rules properly by making their guys call in every 10 hours, then starting their rest period over if they have nothing. This might be worse than what we do, but is technically legal... so be careful what you fight for

Makinitup

Exactly, you got it. What I showed was you can always find something to support a position but, just because it supports your position doesn’t necessarily make it applicable to the situation.
Reserve status isn’t defined in part 121 so I’ll just follow the FOM and contract.

woog315

It is at ABX, and the flow chart says its ok so its ok!