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Old 03-17-2008 | 04:57 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Bandit524
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight. Our collective union says disputed pairings are onerous and are potentially detrimental to safety. Without published supporting rationale we’re supposed to blindly follow their guidance. In the meantime, our least experienced crews are forced to fly these same pairings. Wow, there’s an original safety thought for you! This is all from the same union that promised the moon with respect to analytical contract advice but missed the boat on numerous issues (all discussed previously in this forum), sold us down the river with respect to the FDA, and ignored the majority on age 65. I for one am done with blindly following union recommendations and will assess DPs based upon my own evaluation of the pairing in question. I quite sure there are numerous others that feel likewise. I’m not trying to start a war here and I respect how strongly you guys feel but I’ve felt the need to say this for some time. Maybe you folks can convince me that I’m wrong but my trust in our union is currently deeply in the red.
With the scheduling knowledge you have, you should be volunteering for the SIG/PSIT instead of making things worse. Why do you say our most "inexperienced" crews fly DP's ? Because the ones' in MEM go to junior guys flying them voluntarily ? Our reserves are not our "most" inexperienced guys either. Everyone at FedEx has been there and done that in some form or fashion. You are simply throwing darts for the sake of it. Like others have said your excuse is no different than any of the other non-members.
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Old 03-17-2008 | 05:01 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Bandit524
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight. Our collective union says disputed pairings are onerous and are potentially detrimental to safety. Without published supporting rationale we’re supposed to blindly follow their guidance. In the meantime, our least experienced crews are forced to fly these same pairings. Wow, there’s an original safety thought for you! This is all from the same union that promised the moon with respect to analytical contract advice but missed the boat on numerous issues (all discussed previously in this forum), sold us down the river with respect to the FDA, and ignored the majority on age 65. I for one am done with blindly following union recommendations and will assess DPs based upon my own evaluation of the pairing in question. I quite sure there are numerous others that feel likewise. I’m not trying to start a war here and I respect how strongly you guys feel but I’ve felt the need to say this for some time. Maybe you folks can convince me that I’m wrong but my trust in our union is currently deeply in the red.
Do you also believe in "relative moralism"? ...or, to stay on the good side of the moderators, shall I say "relative ethics"?

Last edited by DLax85; 03-17-2008 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 03-17-2008 | 05:09 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Bandit524
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight. Our collective union says disputed pairings are onerous and are potentially detrimental to safety...

...I for one am done with blindly following union recommendations and will assess DPs based upon my own evaluation of the pairing in question...

...I’m not trying to start a war here and I respect how strongly you guys feel but...
I'm not beating up on you. Repeat, no criticism.

By saying you will evaluate all pairings, including DPs, yourself (which we do anytime we pick something out of open time) I gather you will fly one if it looks good enough.

Unfortunately, you and I don't have a seat at the table when pairings are put forward for dispute. Not every pairing I think ought to be disputed is disputed. Maybe some we don't think are too bad for us on a given day are disputed. But they may be setting the stage for giving ground on other pairings and need to be disputed.

One thing I can guarantee is PM makes the SIG justify every single dispute. If it can't be justified it is not approved by the company for dispute.

We have to support the SIG because, if we don't, ALL disputes will go away and our bid pack will eventually look really terrible. Worse than it does now. I have seen DPs change for the better when left in open time for a couple of months.

The PSIT reps are trying to minimize fatigue for us. They fight an uphill battle even with our support under the current contract. I believe your frustration may be with their inability to make all the fixes they want to make. Don't confuse the PSIT and SIG with the regime that negotiated the LOA and the last contract. Totally different crowds.

I don't think the company pairing builders and king of the optimizer have any incentive or desire to build better bid packs, do you?

Not only that, I believe the runner of the optimizer is under scrutiny. Rumor is he left his last job because he upset the pilots too much. It is not good for him when pairings have to be chopped up to give to reserves (and made more expensive) when his charter is to save money. We have some power, we just have to realize it.


If you want to know why a pairing is disputed...E-mail your PSIT rep. They literally beg for more e-mail.

Last edited by Gunter; 03-17-2008 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 03-17-2008 | 06:11 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Bandit524
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight. Our collective union says disputed pairings are onerous and are potentially detrimental to safety. Without published supporting rationale we’re supposed to blindly follow their guidance. In the meantime, our least experienced crews are forced to fly these same pairings. Wow, there’s an original safety thought for you! This is all from the same union that promised the moon with respect to analytical contract advice but missed the boat on numerous issues (all discussed previously in this forum), sold us down the river with respect to the FDA, and ignored the majority on age 65. I for one am done with blindly following union recommendations and will assess DPs based upon my own evaluation of the pairing in question. I quite sure there are numerous others that feel likewise. I’m not trying to start a war here and I respect how strongly you guys feel but I’ve felt the need to say this for some time. Maybe you folks can convince me that I’m wrong but my trust in our union is currently deeply in the red.

In an attempt to convince you you are wrong I must start out by saying you are 90% right. The arrogant SOBs refuse to admit mistakes about hosing the lower half of the seniority list every chance they get. Then blow smoke up our exhaust about how unified and ready we are for contract 2010. They roll over with out a peep while the company's FOX system steals >20% of the value from our deviation bank. But things are getting better.

Contract Enforcement has woken up from their 2 year nap and are actually filing grievances. At least one of the block representatives that thought sending his "subjects" on a 90 day involuntary assignment was a "good deal" is gone.

Here is the bottomline. Don't expect to much out of "your" union until you are in the top third of the seniority list. You will be much less likely to be disappointed. But flying DPs does not stick it to the union it sticks it to the guys in the lower two thirds of the senority list. The system does work, I have seen some really crap boeing trips get fixed in the last couple of years.

Last edited by FDXLAG; 03-17-2008 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 03-17-2008 | 07:31 AM
  #25  
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I disagree that it sticks it to the bottom of the list. For the most part the bottom third is on Reserve and would get to sit at home if the disputed pairing gets picked up. And when the dispute gets fixed they are not senior enough to hold it. If the YOW 37 credit hour that blocks 12 disputed pairing was not disputed it would go in the top 20% of the senority list.

And how is it unsafe for a line guy to fly the dispute once but a guy on Reserve can fly two weeks of them back to back.
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Old 03-17-2008 | 08:00 AM
  #26  
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Junior guys may sit reserve, but so do senior dudes. Many senior guys alternate flying lines with reserve the next.


Sorry, but the avoidance of DPs is not an anti-junior guy program. There are reasons to be unhappy with the Senior vs. Junior system, but this is not one of them.

Have you noticed habitual DP flyers are normally more senior? These individuals don't care what the lower half of the lines look like.
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Old 03-17-2008 | 08:07 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by VBone
I disagree that it sticks it to the bottom of the list. For the most part the bottom third is on Reserve and would get to sit at home if the disputed pairing gets picked up. And when the dispute gets fixed they are not senior enough to hold it. If the YOW 37 credit hour that blocks 12 disputed pairing was not disputed it would go in the top 20% of the senority list.

And how is it unsafe for a line guy to fly the dispute once but a guy on Reserve can fly two weeks of them back to back.
It is not "unsafe" for a guy to fly a DP once voluntarily. This is the ONLY procedure we have in the CBA to address crap pairings. They are all legal per the CBA and FAR's, does not mean that others are any better. Bottom line, we need to follow the Disputed Pairing procedure in 25.BB if we are to have any say in fixing these pairings.

On ANY pairing you become fatigued, you are required to call the D.O. and notify him (per the CBA, FOM and FAR's). We need to make that call when applicable !
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Old 03-17-2008 | 08:10 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by VBone
I disagree that it sticks it to the bottom of the list. For the most part the bottom third is on Reserve and would get to sit at home if the disputed pairing gets picked up. And when the dispute gets fixed they are not senior enough to hold it. If the YOW 37 credit hour that blocks 12 disputed pairing was not disputed it would go in the top 20% of the senority list.

And how is it unsafe for a line guy to fly the dispute once but a guy on Reserve can fly two weeks of them back to back.
So, for 3 months, the reserves fly the disputed trip. Then it gets fixed, the reserve guys get to stay at home, and the senior guy gets to fly a much better trip. Then when you get senior, you continue to fly a much better trip.

Vice a non-reserve flying it for 3 months, it gets removed from the DP process, and now EVERYONE has to fly it that way forever.

Rocket surgery...

And handing a DP to a reserve doesn't make it more safe. I don't know where you came up with that.
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Old 03-17-2008 | 08:34 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Bandit524
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight. Our collective union says disputed pairings are onerous and are potentially detrimental to safety. Without published supporting rationale we’re supposed to blindly follow their guidance. In the meantime, our least experienced crews are forced to fly these same pairings. Wow, there’s an original safety thought for you! This is all from the same union that promised the moon with respect to analytical contract advice but missed the boat on numerous issues (all discussed previously in this forum), sold us down the river with respect to the FDA, and ignored the majority on age 65. I for one am done with blindly following union recommendations and will assess DPs based upon my own evaluation of the pairing in question. I quite sure there are numerous others that feel likewise. I’m not trying to start a war here and I respect how strongly you guys feel but I’ve felt the need to say this for some time. Maybe you folks can convince me that I’m wrong but my trust in our union is currently deeply in the red.
Sounds like you are grasping for any excuse to rationalize what you want to do. You just defined yourself as an independent contractor by saying you will define yourself as a "SIG of one!". So do what you're going to do anyway, but don't blame our fouled up leadership for your lack of intestinal fortitude, or your inability to stay away from the trough. Our MEC has faults enough they ought to take responsibility for, they don't need to take the blame for your character flaws as well.

By the way, when you operate on your own deliberately with full knowledge of what you do, we won't try too hard to convince you of anything.......I think you'll spend the better part of the rest of your career trying to convince others that you were "doing the right thing".....you might spend your time writing anti-union manifestos on a message board that no one reads...either way, you make your bed...you lie in it.
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Old 03-17-2008 | 10:38 AM
  #30  
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Default Baby out with the Bathwater

I think we all can agree that the union has not lived up to its part of deal when it comes to FDA, LOA, age 65, etc, etc. But let us say this, those guys deal with a tremendously diverse crew force and we all have out 'pet' issues. They have to balance all that junk (including some additional pressure from the national ALPA) and try and do the right thing. It may not be our favorite thing, but it should be the right thing. The age 65 law didn't make too much sense for us at FedEx because we've never been laid off, or had our pension stolen by management...but a lot of our fellow union members have. So while we may not like the law change it made sense for much of the crew force. Besides who among us can say for sure furloughs or bankruptcy 'can't happen at FedEx'. That is what quite a few United dudes were saying not too long ago.
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