Pakagecheck

Rock,
I did the posture for charters thing for about a year. I was pretty fortunate and some months, that was my entire month. other months, not so much. It has been a couple of years, but whether some want to believe it, it is a mindset and a lifestyle. Can you leave tomorrow for a 12 day trip? Or dh out this afternoon? Take a trip you put in for and haven't looked at yet? Or you bid poorly and can't do that carryover charter because you have a trip next month and open time isn't out yet but there is a sunday departure. While there are 4000 pilots, we are talking about 600 per seat for these charters. My seat is easier. There are a descent amount of older guys that are technically challenged. Over half, never even look at open time. Another big group, maybe look a couple times a day. Once you get a trip, being a charter, it has a chance of getting cnx'd and then the OTP thing kicks in. Now you are in the driver's seat.

Just because one has internet access for over 10 years, I wouldn't qualify it as a decade of experience. I just flew with a guy that didnt know how to cancel a trip trade request and he thought he was savvy. I have spoken with others that are only looking at 7 am. On average, how many times a day do you look at open time? Not accusatory but do you ever get locked out for hitting the magic 300 or get up to download that last beer in the middle of the night and log on to PFC? You will be surprised what you will see. But, once you see something, you also gotta be willing to act. Do you have more than one device being used at once? If you ask your wife, look at your schedule, or call corp travel to see if you can get a ticket..... too late.

I wasn't a pro, but I was a AAA ball player and I have never been the sharpest knife in the drawer. On multiple layovers, I was accused of being a bot guy. I never blocked my schedule. I personally think that shouldn't be an option but right now it is. If you don't think it is possible, go all in. Drop your entire month, spend all day on the computer and be willing to leave at a moment's notice. There are definite ways to posture yourself with your schedule to make it easier for you to be a player.

I'll equate your numbers. 3-4% of high school football players play in college. Of all of the college players that go pro it is less than 2%. So do I think it is possible, yes, especially once one starts running with OTP.
As I said, I think a couple might be doing some questionable tactics, but I know for a fact that they are being watched, to include computer keystrokes, to try and catch them.

Just a litmus test, since you logged on to APC, how many times have you checked open time on PFC?

Pakagecheck

Doody,
Obviously you are somewhat successful. So you may have won the battle on a few and not know he was playing. OTP is the trump card plain and simple. IF you use it to get another xpairing or charter and it gets dropped, you are in it again. I picked up an xpairing that 2 minutes after I was awarded it, it got cancelled and I was put in sub, declined and then more OTP. At one point, I had over 100 hrs. And once you get one of those trips, they have a much higher propensity to get cancelled. So, you can be fast as lightning and in good shape, but if the overweight chain smoker eating greasy food slithers up to the table with the card licked and stuck to his forehead, chanting, "I got your stopper right here", you are SOL. Not saying it's fair, just saying it's legal and possible. Does it need fixed, definitely! I personal not a fan of Albie's suggestion but at least it is an option.

DoodyOfficer

I'm not a fan of the seniority based OT system either. I do believe real time trip trading would eliminate a lot of these issues. The only thing it would not eliminate is BOT dudes. Thanks for shedding more light on the OTP process. Many of us understand bits and pieces of it but until one has monthly access to this they can't fully understand all the ins and outs. It's a broke system. Real time trip trading eliminates a lot of this to include the scheduler who might walk away from his desk when the trades are in until his buddy puts in his OTP then processes the trip trade. OTP should not be recycled its a 1 time good deal at 125% not a complete recycle month after month.
I think the union should put out information on this very subject. A couple months ago they put together a nice presentation on how we get paid. I also believe they should make a stance whether they believe it's legit or to knock it off.

1st overnite

I not sure if this is the same guy, but I had a long layover with a former purple nugget and over several drinks, he told me he had his high school computer teacher or somebody like that create a program to search open time to improve his schedule as a lower 48 commuter to Anchorage. That was the pre-bot time frame. But I'm sure if you get a computer guy smart enough, they can find a program around the current system.

I'm not an 11 pilot, but regardless, this isn't right. I'm not sure how it's done, but something isn't right when the same guys "win" open time all of the time.

Pakagecheck

Totally agree. For a transparent process, I also think that should include our schedules. I do believe that if there are bot's, they will eventually be found. I have a bud that owns an IT company and over stogies and cocktails, we discussed this. He laughed and said, "dude, for a bottle of 20yr old scotch, I can hook you up. Just not worth my career.

As you have experienced, if you are willing to work at it, you can significantly improve your schedule and IMHO Albie's option would limit this. But with that said, it is an option and since I don't have one yet to offer, or heard of another, I wouldn't completely discount it.

I guess, one option would be, limit of pairing over x hours to once a quarter or once you pick up the trip, no more for a rolling 3 months. IE, you pick up a 60 hr xpairing in Jan and the number is say 20, you are sidelined until april for them. You can still play with normal trips. This would extend past the otp window and allow other players shots. Also, no recycling of the trip. i.e., pick it up with OTP drop it and pick it back up with normal mu. Just spitballin

Anthrax

Would real-time trip trading eliminate the unfair advantage from bots? Probably not. Bots have changed the game, and from what I hear, it's virtually impossible for the company to tell who is and who's is not using them. Or the company doesn't care so long as the trips are covered. How about automated windows for processing open time? Every hour on the hour, every two hours, the open times trips are doled out according to whoever put the bid in and based on seniority. If the trip is time critical, i.e., shows within ninety minutes, then the trip goes to reserve. Junior guys won't like this ... until they have some seniority. But I can say as an airbus guy that perhaps the top thirty percent are awarded decent schedules from the bid pack, and the rest scramble month-to-month. In a seniority-based system, which is the proven fair method for pilots as a whole, why not add a little of that into the much coveted open time process?

Pakagecheck

A,
in the 11 OTP, is the game changer and the recycling of it. Bots could be out there, but IMHO they aren't. Not saying that at one time, this wasn't the case but not now. My IT bud said that it could be traceable. Since the Purple Inquisition, I know a couple of players that dropped out, or at least backed way off. If these few that are still hitting it hard, are doing it. It is gonna cost someone a career. Just my basic opinion.

FDXLAG

Your reserve plan won't work. Among the main reasons we went into 4a2b was contract 2006 and opening up the reserve assignments to the open time frenzy. This allowed the company to reduce their reserve manning, which they like. Nothing we want will jeopardize this.

Maddawg71

It is good to see the discussion about all of this has started. It's a start. The next step is to get enough guys to put our Union dues to work and get the MEC to formally address this. Contact your Block Rep. today. This isn't rocket surgery!

mrzog2138

The biggest problem is the inconsistencies with how "good deal" open time trips are assigned. And since the same individuals get them all the time the perception exists that something fishy is going on. Case in point.

Scenario 1: The past week there were 3-4 great x-pairings (international double deadheads). They were frozen for about 4-5 days for everybody to see. Now mind you there are probably a lot of people with legitimate OTP because of all the weather cancellations in IND, EWR, etc over the past month. Were these great trips unfrozen and made available at the normal time in the morning when trips are processed? No, they were made available at some random, obscure time in the afternoon and processed almost instantaneously. Not allowing individuals with legitimate OTP the opportunity to request them. The recipients of these trips the same cast of characters.

Scenario 2. Another good deal trip is available in open time (previous months). It is not processed for 5-7 hours. Half a day later you get the "Earlier Time Stamp". You look and again the same cast of characters got the trip. Did they get it because of OTP?

Why did they process one trip instaneously and the other take 5-7 hours to process? And since it benefited the same people, is something fishy going on? Until everything is on the up an up, there is going to be the perception that guys like, Lakeside, are cheating the system some way.