Omni TA
10-28-2017, 08:04 PM
#11
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 29
Spock, you actually sound like you work at Omni so I will respond to you.
How can you say you are concerned about the direction of the company because you want to "stem the tide of people leaving" yet you are willing to ruin the company by doing a "slow down"?
You can't have it both ways. Either you care about the company or you don't.
Like I have said before. The company is laughing all the way to the bank. Our Union is bickering over stuff that the company will never change and the company is saving 1.5 million dollars a month.
The membership is paying for that, not the Union and certainly not pilots from other airlines.
Frank Paden
How can you say you are concerned about the direction of the company because you want to "stem the tide of people leaving" yet you are willing to ruin the company by doing a "slow down"?
You can't have it both ways. Either you care about the company or you don't.
Like I have said before. The company is laughing all the way to the bank. Our Union is bickering over stuff that the company will never change and the company is saving 1.5 million dollars a month.
The membership is paying for that, not the Union and certainly not pilots from other airlines.
Frank Paden
10-28-2017, 08:23 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by HercDriver130
Thats not the way it works Frank... in the end the 1224 Eboard.. and the ExCo Chairman of all the 1224 Carriers will vote your contract in or out.....so... think about that for awhile.
You are only partially correct.
If our representation no longer reflects the will of the pilot group, we can recall them.
If the new group get stymied by the 1224 E board, then we just vote them off property.
ALPA is always an option and doesn't pull this bent nose Hoffa b.s.
10-28-2017, 08:23 PM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 29
Look, it does no good to even discuss this on here.
We can settle this by putting out the companies best proposal as a TA. Then Omni and the Union will know where everyone stands and we can proceed.
If the proposal is so terrible, then it will be voted down.
I am very biased. I think Omni is the best supplemental airline out there. I have been here for 18 years and I think that together we have built a great airline. We have the best pilots in the industry. That is why other airline pilots are so envious of Omni and want to see it fail. You know who you are...
This is simple stuff. Put out something for us to vote on. We have discussed enough.
Frank Paden
We can settle this by putting out the companies best proposal as a TA. Then Omni and the Union will know where everyone stands and we can proceed.
If the proposal is so terrible, then it will be voted down.
I am very biased. I think Omni is the best supplemental airline out there. I have been here for 18 years and I think that together we have built a great airline. We have the best pilots in the industry. That is why other airline pilots are so envious of Omni and want to see it fail. You know who you are...
This is simple stuff. Put out something for us to vote on. We have discussed enough.
Frank Paden
10-28-2017, 08:36 PM
#14
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,021
There are those, when being robbed, who wish to take the best offer from the robber, or to capitulate entirely.
I can recall a captain that attempted to suggest to negotiators on both sides that he felt pilots were given too much per diem. He said he thought pilots didn't deserve better than McDonalds. The company loved him. The membership did not.
The notion of taking the best no-good offer the company hash made, and passing that out as acceptable for a vote, doesn't hold much water. That's life on a sinking ship, and deciding which hole below the waterline is acceptable.
A negotiation is just that, but it's not a surrender. It's not a solicitation to see what the company will give. It's a bargaining process, and there's a reason that unions exist to do this, bargaining collectively on behalf.
When the company makes an offer that's unacceptable and the union gives it to the membership anyway, it carries a ratification by the union and a tacit approval that lends credibility to the unacceptable. The notion that membership won't vote it in if it's bad is naive and disregards the credence given by the union when putting it out for a vote. Don't put out for a vote what isn't acceptable. People vote for presidents and politicians frequently with whom they're not satisfied, because it's the least of many evils on the ballot.
Don't put evils on the ballot. If something is unacceptable, don't knuckle under with the thinking that it's the best you can get. It's not so. The company walks away from the negotiating table precisely because they hope to hear voices like Frank's, telling people to vote for the crumbs the company has tossed. Don't pander to the other side. It's weakness, and it won't get you the contract you want.
Been there, done that.
I can recall a captain that attempted to suggest to negotiators on both sides that he felt pilots were given too much per diem. He said he thought pilots didn't deserve better than McDonalds. The company loved him. The membership did not.
The notion of taking the best no-good offer the company hash made, and passing that out as acceptable for a vote, doesn't hold much water. That's life on a sinking ship, and deciding which hole below the waterline is acceptable.
A negotiation is just that, but it's not a surrender. It's not a solicitation to see what the company will give. It's a bargaining process, and there's a reason that unions exist to do this, bargaining collectively on behalf.
When the company makes an offer that's unacceptable and the union gives it to the membership anyway, it carries a ratification by the union and a tacit approval that lends credibility to the unacceptable. The notion that membership won't vote it in if it's bad is naive and disregards the credence given by the union when putting it out for a vote. Don't put out for a vote what isn't acceptable. People vote for presidents and politicians frequently with whom they're not satisfied, because it's the least of many evils on the ballot.
Don't put evils on the ballot. If something is unacceptable, don't knuckle under with the thinking that it's the best you can get. It's not so. The company walks away from the negotiating table precisely because they hope to hear voices like Frank's, telling people to vote for the crumbs the company has tossed. Don't pander to the other side. It's weakness, and it won't get you the contract you want.
Been there, done that.
10-28-2017, 08:46 PM
#15
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 22
[QUOTE=fraannk;2456510]Spock, you actually sound like you work at Omni so I will respond to you.
How can you say you are concerned about the direction of the company because you want to "stem the tide of people leaving" yet you are willing to ruin the company by doing a "slow down"?
Don't put words in my mouth Frank I never said slow down I said I'm sick and tired of doing other people's jobs for them so once they realize that we do most of the work when we stop doing everyone else's work they'll begin to realize that they are totally under paying us and that they should put their money where their mouth is if they really want to save the company.
And like I said once we agreed to basically accept what they were offering us they withdrew their offer so you explain to me how you can be so two-faced as to offer the pilot group something and then when the negotiation team finally realizes nothing's going to happen they offer them
You can't have it both ways. Either you care about the company or you don't.
Like I have said before. The company is laughing all the way to the bank. Our Union is bickering over stuff that the company will never change and the company is saving 1.5 million dollars a month.
The membership is paying for that, not the Union and certainly not pilots from other airlines.
Frank Paden[/QUOTE
Don't put words in my mouth Frank I never said slow down I said I'm sick and tired of doing other people's jobs for them so once they realize that we do most of the work when we stop doing everyone else's work they'll begin to realize that they are totally under paying us and that they should put their money where their mouth is if they really want to save the company.
And like I said once we agreed to basically accept what they were offering us they withdrew their offer so you explain to me how you can be so two-faced as to offer the pilot group something and then when the negotiation team finally realizes nothing's going to happen they offer them a temporary solution and they walk away from the table because they can't get their way. And while they're laughing all the way to the bank they're destroying their own company explain that to me Frank. They're turning down jobs their flying Captain's as first officers they're running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that you don't think that we've been completely under paid for all the years that we've worked here? come on man isn't it time for them to step up to the plate?
How can you say you are concerned about the direction of the company because you want to "stem the tide of people leaving" yet you are willing to ruin the company by doing a "slow down"?
Don't put words in my mouth Frank I never said slow down I said I'm sick and tired of doing other people's jobs for them so once they realize that we do most of the work when we stop doing everyone else's work they'll begin to realize that they are totally under paying us and that they should put their money where their mouth is if they really want to save the company.
And like I said once we agreed to basically accept what they were offering us they withdrew their offer so you explain to me how you can be so two-faced as to offer the pilot group something and then when the negotiation team finally realizes nothing's going to happen they offer them
You can't have it both ways. Either you care about the company or you don't.
Like I have said before. The company is laughing all the way to the bank. Our Union is bickering over stuff that the company will never change and the company is saving 1.5 million dollars a month.
The membership is paying for that, not the Union and certainly not pilots from other airlines.
Frank Paden[/QUOTE
Don't put words in my mouth Frank I never said slow down I said I'm sick and tired of doing other people's jobs for them so once they realize that we do most of the work when we stop doing everyone else's work they'll begin to realize that they are totally under paying us and that they should put their money where their mouth is if they really want to save the company.
And like I said once we agreed to basically accept what they were offering us they withdrew their offer so you explain to me how you can be so two-faced as to offer the pilot group something and then when the negotiation team finally realizes nothing's going to happen they offer them a temporary solution and they walk away from the table because they can't get their way. And while they're laughing all the way to the bank they're destroying their own company explain that to me Frank. They're turning down jobs their flying Captain's as first officers they're running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that you don't think that we've been completely under paid for all the years that we've worked here? come on man isn't it time for them to step up to the plate?
10-28-2017, 08:50 PM
#16
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by fraannk
Look, it does no good to even discuss this on here.
We can settle this by putting out the companies best proposal as a TA. Then Omni and the Union will know where everyone stands and we can proceed.
If the proposal is so terrible, then it will be voted down.
I am very biased. I think Omni is the best supplemental airline out there. I have been here for 18 years and I think that together we have built a great airline. We have the best pilots in the industry. That is why other airline pilots are so envious of Omni and want to see it fail. You know who you are...
This is simple stuff. Put out something for us to vote on. We have discussed enough.
Frank Paden
We can settle this by putting out the companies best proposal as a TA. Then Omni and the Union will know where everyone stands and we can proceed.
If the proposal is so terrible, then it will be voted down.
I am very biased. I think Omni is the best supplemental airline out there. I have been here for 18 years and I think that together we have built a great airline. We have the best pilots in the industry. That is why other airline pilots are so envious of Omni and want to see it fail. You know who you are...
This is simple stuff. Put out something for us to vote on. We have discussed enough.
Frank Paden
They had (NC) finally agree to put something on paper but only make it somewhat temporary so that it can be renegotiated in the future and the company not only withdraws the offer but refuses to even meet the offer that they were going to give us in the first place
10-28-2017, 08:52 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville
As an airline pilot flying in the U.S., I have skin in the game. We are all tied together whether you like it or not. Overtime you fight to for lower pay and work rules you are an advocate for lower pay and work rules across the industry.
We all know you and Dubious are dying to take any deal you can get, no matter how bad it is. If you are so bent out of shape about the direction your fellow pilots are taking in negotiations, I challenge you two to run for a leadership position within your union to change the direction you are headed in. With that said, I would bet that you two are the vocal minority that are simply outnumbered by those with higher standards, self-worth and common sense. However, I could be wrong. This is certainly a vote I would like to see.
We all know you and Dubious are dying to take any deal you can get, no matter how bad it is. If you are so bent out of shape about the direction your fellow pilots are taking in negotiations, I challenge you two to run for a leadership position within your union to change the direction you are headed in. With that said, I would bet that you two are the vocal minority that are simply outnumbered by those with higher standards, self-worth and common sense. However, I could be wrong. This is certainly a vote I would like to see.
In a word....
Bullshyt.
The hard core union guys always whip out their go to line, "if you don't like it, volunteer" the problem with that is, that ain't how it works.
We all pay dues, we physically pay each month for the right to tell our representative how we feel on an issue.
If we get a positive response, we continue to support them; if not we cast our vote for someone we believe will represent our individual wishes.
If you notice, Frank didn't give anyone lectures or even tell people how to vote.
If you're right that he and just "a few guys" share his belief, then there is no way a TA would pass, strengthening the hand of our negotiators.
If you're wrong and it passed, then clearly the will of the majority of the pilot group would be represented.
Your accusation that Frank is advocating for "lower standards in the industry" is outlandish.
If it is true that we are losing thousands of dollars ea month to fight for 16 days off when the avg Omni pilot works 12 or 13 days a month (on avg) then clearly, we are sacrificing for others not ourselves.
I'm sure you're warming up your keyboard to tell me how selfish that is.
Well, it's no more selfish then pilots from other carriers that expect us to fight for something that will help them (at the cost of tens of thousands of dollars) which will have minimal impact on us.
Finally, your assumption that Frank "probably" doesn't represent more than a couple of pilots is dead wrong.
I've talked to at least 20 guys and 100% of them agree that the gains obtained thus far (thanks NC, you efforts are applauded)
are good enough IF the language is solid.
I talked to one of the NC guys about a year ago and asked him what were the most pressing issues that the pilots wanted and 16 days wasn't even on the list!
That's not to say nobody wanted it, just that the survey didn't make it a priority.
If you think it's great to fight indefinitely (and you are a current Omni pilot) for what is in your opinion, "industry standard" then i say awesome! And, commend your fortitude.
If you're not, well......
10-29-2017, 03:40 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by fraannk
I have a crazy idea.
Since we now have until the Spring before any more negotiations are planned, why doesn't the negotiating committee put together a TA with the companies best offer. We have plenty of time.
We can find out two things in the meantime. Either the Union actually does speak for members and the group will vote it down, or the Union has done a good enough job already and the members will vote it in.
Win, win.
Frank Paden
Since we now have until the Spring before any more negotiations are planned, why doesn't the negotiating committee put together a TA with the companies best offer. We have plenty of time.
We can find out two things in the meantime. Either the Union actually does speak for members and the group will vote it down, or the Union has done a good enough job already and the members will vote it in.
Win, win.
Frank Paden
Because, it is a weak offer that does not deserve to be passed. And it won’t. It is time for our profession to be raised to a standard it deserves and companies that promote anything less need to change their mentalities. Only by making a stand like this you initiate such change
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