Omni Air
08-18-2011, 06:09 PM
#381
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 29
Guys this TA is worse than our current policy manual. Don't think for a second the company won't exploit everything they possibly can. We'll be out 19 days and paid for 18. We'll never be on short call enough to generate enough pay credit to break guarantee, so we'll still be out 18, no make that 19 days now with only pay for the 60-hour guarantee. That's how it is going to be.
The crappy health insurance is still horribly expensive. The multiple gateway airport situation is horrible.
If I'm away from home in a hotel or in a combination of hotels and flying for 18 days, I expect pay credit to push me well over my guarantee. But that isn't going to happen here.
Honestly people, this TA is a joke. I'll accept the measly 31% pay raise this will give most people of mid-seniority, but there MUST be a Trip Rig AND a Duty Rig, there must be NO MORE than 18 days away from home PERIOD (preferably 16-17), we must be locked into just one gateway airport unless a crew member requests different for a particular trip where they might be away from home, and there MUST be cheaper health insurance and more company contribution into the 401(k).
We can all vote NO and get those things when the company realizes we won't accept anything less.
Don't be idiots and accept this steaming pile as it stands now.
The crappy health insurance is still horribly expensive. The multiple gateway airport situation is horrible.
If I'm away from home in a hotel or in a combination of hotels and flying for 18 days, I expect pay credit to push me well over my guarantee. But that isn't going to happen here.
Honestly people, this TA is a joke. I'll accept the measly 31% pay raise this will give most people of mid-seniority, but there MUST be a Trip Rig AND a Duty Rig, there must be NO MORE than 18 days away from home PERIOD (preferably 16-17), we must be locked into just one gateway airport unless a crew member requests different for a particular trip where they might be away from home, and there MUST be cheaper health insurance and more company contribution into the 401(k).
We can all vote NO and get those things when the company realizes we won't accept anything less.
Don't be idiots and accept this steaming pile as it stands now.
08-18-2011, 06:18 PM
#382
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,075
That about sums it up. Other than the pay, the improvements are marginal while the QOL issues got hammered
The pay is an improvement. New hires get $350 instead of $125 for the leather jacket. The insurance premiums are an improvement for the junior guys, but the insurance itself is not very good. I think we get a little more for FAA physicals and uniform allowance.
Home basing is effectively given away. No improvement to the callout pay. No improvement to the 401k match. A day off was given away. What? no rigs??
And the conditional language... Everything needs to be "shall," "must" and "will." "Best effort," "reasonable" and "when practicable" cannot be enforced.
In many ways this is worse than the EPPH. I am confused that the NC unanimously endorses it. If it passes, there are going to be a bunch of ticked off pilots. Better paid, yes, but very ticked off.
The pay is an improvement. New hires get $350 instead of $125 for the leather jacket. The insurance premiums are an improvement for the junior guys, but the insurance itself is not very good. I think we get a little more for FAA physicals and uniform allowance.
Home basing is effectively given away. No improvement to the callout pay. No improvement to the 401k match. A day off was given away. What? no rigs??
And the conditional language... Everything needs to be "shall," "must" and "will." "Best effort," "reasonable" and "when practicable" cannot be enforced.
In many ways this is worse than the EPPH. I am confused that the NC unanimously endorses it. If it passes, there are going to be a bunch of ticked off pilots. Better paid, yes, but very ticked off.
Last edited by Hetman; 08-18-2011 at 07:04 PM.
08-18-2011, 07:24 PM
#383
Tuk er jerbs!
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: B747 Left
Posts: 1,342
Let me just ask, gentlemen: When Clark and Charlie step down if we reject this, and the NMB shelves us, where are we then?
I'm not 100% behind this thing either, but I want to be realistic about what happens if we vote it down. Go to a road show before you vote...
I'm not 100% behind this thing either, but I want to be realistic about what happens if we vote it down. Go to a road show before you vote...
08-18-2011, 09:27 PM
#384
Tuk er jerbs!
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: B747 Left
Posts: 1,342
And guys, I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything. I'm not a union volunteer. I'm just one guy who has his one vote, who also hopes that everyone will be thoroughly educated before placing their votes, as well. Go to a road show and talk to these guys. If you can't, participate in the conference call that goes along with each road show date.
Last edited by NightIP; 08-18-2011 at 09:52 PM.
08-18-2011, 10:54 PM
#386
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: just a co-pilot
Posts: 194
Omni pilot, I agree completely. I think we will see more split lines, possibly even 6 on 4 off with travel on your off days for free. That's potentially 3 days every month of travel for free. That's a pay cut by my math. I much rather drudge through another year or two of negotiations than deal with something worse than the FC EPPH for 5 years followed by another 3 years of negotiations on top of that. I will be voting no as well.
IP, The negotiators will probably hand over the reigns to someone else or will have a lot more assistance to ease their workload whether or not this TA passes. I know with all this excitement going on right now quite a few more people are fired up (me included). That's a great thing!!!!
Eric, how has it been since Jeffery has left? Do you miss him? We have had a few guys from Ryan come through here and have educated the group on his ways. I guess he is pulling the same tactics here and people see them coming a mile away.
IP, The negotiators will probably hand over the reigns to someone else or will have a lot more assistance to ease their workload whether or not this TA passes. I know with all this excitement going on right now quite a few more people are fired up (me included). That's a great thing!!!!
Eric, how has it been since Jeffery has left? Do you miss him? We have had a few guys from Ryan come through here and have educated the group on his ways. I guess he is pulling the same tactics here and people see them coming a mile away.
08-19-2011, 04:57 AM
#387
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Tiller Twisting; Yoke Strangling; Button Smashing - Switch Monkey
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by EricJ320
Hey guys, I applaud the Omni guys getting a TA. Although, I'd like to give you some things to think about when deciding how to vote. Being at Ryan for 14 years now, I am extremely knowlegeable of your current CEO, as he used to be ours.
Under our previous contract, Jeff Crippen "promised" us we'd never get used to the full 8 days on/6 days off they needed in the contract, traveling outside our lines, they only wanted it for emergencies. It wasn't but a year or two, every line and every pilot was spending 10 days away and 4 days at home, counting our commute. Furthermore, he "promised" we'd always get hotels in base, but it wasn't in the contract. Again, a year or two later, they started trying to take away hotels in the Chicago base. When we threw a huge fit, they gave the rooms back, but negotiated with the hotel for a lower rate with no housekeeping, even no linens or toilet paper would be supplied. My point is, if it's not in the contract, you can not trust Crippen to stick to his word.
Please don't take this wrong, because I truly wish you guys the best, regardless if our companies compete in the non-sched world, the more each pilot group moves forward, the better off we'll all be in the end. Just take a look at our contract and see how it stacks up against your TA. Don't look at our profile page on APC, it's not very accurate, although I've tried to get it updated. From many of the things I've heard about your TA from friends, unless that info is wrong, I would have liked to see you guys surpass us since our current contract is 3 1/2 years old and due to be amended next spring. If you want some of the details I can give them to you to compare.
Like I said, we need to be notching each other up from contract to contract. I do realize this is your first contract though, our first was a real steaming pile, far worse than your TA.
Under our previous contract, Jeff Crippen "promised" us we'd never get used to the full 8 days on/6 days off they needed in the contract, traveling outside our lines, they only wanted it for emergencies. It wasn't but a year or two, every line and every pilot was spending 10 days away and 4 days at home, counting our commute. Furthermore, he "promised" we'd always get hotels in base, but it wasn't in the contract. Again, a year or two later, they started trying to take away hotels in the Chicago base. When we threw a huge fit, they gave the rooms back, but negotiated with the hotel for a lower rate with no housekeeping, even no linens or toilet paper would be supplied. My point is, if it's not in the contract, you can not trust Crippen to stick to his word.
Please don't take this wrong, because I truly wish you guys the best, regardless if our companies compete in the non-sched world, the more each pilot group moves forward, the better off we'll all be in the end. Just take a look at our contract and see how it stacks up against your TA. Don't look at our profile page on APC, it's not very accurate, although I've tried to get it updated. From many of the things I've heard about your TA from friends, unless that info is wrong, I would have liked to see you guys surpass us since our current contract is 3 1/2 years old and due to be amended next spring. If you want some of the details I can give them to you to compare.
Like I said, we need to be notching each other up from contract to contract. I do realize this is your first contract though, our first was a real steaming pile, far worse than your TA.
Thanks again for the support
08-19-2011, 05:06 AM
#388
I have shiny jet syndrome
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: ELACS, FACs and SECs. Who doesn't love 'em?
Posts: 984
Obvious disclaimer: I'm an FNG and the questions I ask are honest questions and I'm not trying to flame anyone. Just looking for answers.
First off, my thanks to the Negotiating Committee for their time and efforts. It's not an easy task and it is a thankless job, and no matter what TA they came back with, there will be some people complaining about it. As a former active ALPA volunteer at my previous airline, I know the hard work that goes into this and I applaud their effort and sacrifice for this pilot group.
I did listen to the conference call last night and it was somewhat informative. I'm hoping to go to one of the roadshows in ATL or DFW next week.
1. If we are to assume the SEoceancrosser is correct and they do use more split lines just to get some extra free travel days out of the pilot group, wouldn't that also increase their costs and be counterintuitive? So, on a typical 18 day pairing, they pay for 2 commercial flights (one from the home airport and one back to it). If they split it, now they are paying 4 airfares. Wouldn't it behoove them to just keep as many 18 day lines as possible?
2. The new contract provides some pretty significant job protection provisions. It pretty much prohibits the company from forming an "Omni Air Lite". As it stands now, they can essentially just close up shop today and re-open tomorrow using the same equipment under a different name. (I realize I may have over simplified this point, but hopefully you catch my drift.) Also, in the event of any type of corporate transaction, where either the company buys another carrier or another carrier buys Omni, the IBT merger policy must be enforced if both pilot groups are represented by the IBT, otherwise Allegheny-Mohawk applies. This is far better than what we have today.
3. Today, we are at will employees. So while on probation you can be fired for any reason and when off probation you can be fired for no reason. Under the new contract, the grievance process is avaliable and the SBA (arbitration) process is also avaliable.
4. Insurance premimums seem to have gone down slightly, which is good. Paying less for mediocre insurance is a good thing, right?
5. Pay rates seem half way reasonable. Granted, some of the pay raises may go toward paying for fuel and long term parking fees under the new "Gateway Airport" concept, minimizing the pay raise.
Thanks again to the Negotiating Committee and I hope that everyone makes an informed decision when they vote for this contract. At a minimum, every pilot here should at least listen to the conference call if they can't go to a roadshow.
I'll probably catch some crap for saying this, however, based on what I know about the negotiating process and the RLA, this isn't terribly horrible (is that considered a double negative? If so, I apologize to my 10th grade English teacher, Mrs. Delk) for a first contract.
First off, my thanks to the Negotiating Committee for their time and efforts. It's not an easy task and it is a thankless job, and no matter what TA they came back with, there will be some people complaining about it. As a former active ALPA volunteer at my previous airline, I know the hard work that goes into this and I applaud their effort and sacrifice for this pilot group.
I did listen to the conference call last night and it was somewhat informative. I'm hoping to go to one of the roadshows in ATL or DFW next week.
1. If we are to assume the SEoceancrosser is correct and they do use more split lines just to get some extra free travel days out of the pilot group, wouldn't that also increase their costs and be counterintuitive? So, on a typical 18 day pairing, they pay for 2 commercial flights (one from the home airport and one back to it). If they split it, now they are paying 4 airfares. Wouldn't it behoove them to just keep as many 18 day lines as possible?
2. The new contract provides some pretty significant job protection provisions. It pretty much prohibits the company from forming an "Omni Air Lite". As it stands now, they can essentially just close up shop today and re-open tomorrow using the same equipment under a different name. (I realize I may have over simplified this point, but hopefully you catch my drift.) Also, in the event of any type of corporate transaction, where either the company buys another carrier or another carrier buys Omni, the IBT merger policy must be enforced if both pilot groups are represented by the IBT, otherwise Allegheny-Mohawk applies. This is far better than what we have today.
3. Today, we are at will employees. So while on probation you can be fired for any reason and when off probation you can be fired for no reason. Under the new contract, the grievance process is avaliable and the SBA (arbitration) process is also avaliable.
4. Insurance premimums seem to have gone down slightly, which is good. Paying less for mediocre insurance is a good thing, right?
5. Pay rates seem half way reasonable. Granted, some of the pay raises may go toward paying for fuel and long term parking fees under the new "Gateway Airport" concept, minimizing the pay raise.
Thanks again to the Negotiating Committee and I hope that everyone makes an informed decision when they vote for this contract. At a minimum, every pilot here should at least listen to the conference call if they can't go to a roadshow.
I'll probably catch some crap for saying this, however, based on what I know about the negotiating process and the RLA, this isn't terribly horrible (is that considered a double negative? If so, I apologize to my 10th grade English teacher, Mrs. Delk) for a first contract.
Last edited by RJtrashPilot; 08-19-2011 at 06:42 AM.
08-19-2011, 03:06 PM
#390
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Underemployed!
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by seoceancrosser
Eric, how has it been since Jeffery has left? Do you miss him? We have had a few guys from Ryan come through here and have educated the group on his ways. I guess he is pulling the same tactics here and people see them coming a mile away.
He's like a used car salesman in a nice suit. Believe me, if it's not knotted up tight with no wiggle room, he'll find a way to exploit it and abuse it. As an example, I have heard, and someone eluded to, in your TA, if you are on long call reserve your minimum daily guarantee won't apply. Our experience with him is, he'll have all of your crews on long call, except one on short call, and rotate which crew that is day to day, assuring no one racks up any credit for their time in hotels. I fear you'll spend the rest of your month chasing guarantee, lucky to get over it. That's just how he operates.
At Ryan, because of things that happened to us in our first contract, under Crippen, we refused to accept any contract that didn't assign value to every single day, in one way or another. Nothing for us is free, or allows them to keep us out without crediting us for it. Travel days, 24 in 7's, training days, and of course trips and reserve days (long or short), every day has a value. It's extremely rare to come in under guarantee, and not uncommon to be 20-30 hours over it. It's the daily guarantee that assures that, not necessarily a lot of flying. A 1 for 2 duty rig, 4.5 hour minimum daily credit for every day, premium pay for all flying outside your line, fewer max days on, and seniority protection, all things that were absolute necessitates for our current contract, regardless of how long it was going to take to get it.
So, whether you guys decide this TA is best for you, or you decide to send it back and try again, I wish you nothing but the best going forward, and hope this info is helpful in making your decision.
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