From ALPA National to DL Management?
12-11-2018, 05:20 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,191
OMG---the sky is falling!!
Fact is, mgt was going to hire someone into that position. It could be a bottom line lawyer type, ala Lorenzo, that fails to understand the nuances of labor relations at the airlines and only looks at the bottom line. Might be(but unlikely) that it will be an individual totally sympathetic to pilots and will sell the company down the river. OR, the third alternative is an individual that understands both sides and realizes that a "fair" position is the most advantageous in the long run and also understands the increased importance to the Delta pilots re scope.
RD might be the smartest guy in the room re scope but I can assure you that the collective Borg brain of almost 15,000 pilots trumps his big brain.
With memrat, I just dont see this as a big deal insofar as being "had" by the company.....but it certainly plays into the anti ALPA crowd and the "it's just not right". Face it, the majority of all people do what is in the best intrest of themselves and their families. I am certain no pilot has called in sick because it was the most expedient/advantageous thing to do. Keep picking up rocks in your moral indignation, all it does is divide not unify. All the threats of DPA proves my point(at least to me)
Aren't the same people that are but hurt the same ones that propose spending money on paid negotiators to get the very best? Well, if RD was so smart then why didnt those same people not advocate paying RD an over-ride to protect that "valuable" resource....could you imagine the heel and cry?........haters just gotta hate.
With the ammendable date just over a year away, let's all pull together and not make polarizing issues outta everything...we al get 1 vote, and we will not be fooled(neither will mgt). The days of pulling one over on the other side are gone, whether RD is there or someone else. Just NBFD
Fact is, mgt was going to hire someone into that position. It could be a bottom line lawyer type, ala Lorenzo, that fails to understand the nuances of labor relations at the airlines and only looks at the bottom line. Might be(but unlikely) that it will be an individual totally sympathetic to pilots and will sell the company down the river. OR, the third alternative is an individual that understands both sides and realizes that a "fair" position is the most advantageous in the long run and also understands the increased importance to the Delta pilots re scope.
RD might be the smartest guy in the room re scope but I can assure you that the collective Borg brain of almost 15,000 pilots trumps his big brain.
With memrat, I just dont see this as a big deal insofar as being "had" by the company.....but it certainly plays into the anti ALPA crowd and the "it's just not right". Face it, the majority of all people do what is in the best intrest of themselves and their families. I am certain no pilot has called in sick because it was the most expedient/advantageous thing to do. Keep picking up rocks in your moral indignation, all it does is divide not unify. All the threats of DPA proves my point(at least to me)
Aren't the same people that are but hurt the same ones that propose spending money on paid negotiators to get the very best? Well, if RD was so smart then why didnt those same people not advocate paying RD an over-ride to protect that "valuable" resource....could you imagine the heel and cry?........haters just gotta hate.
With the ammendable date just over a year away, let's all pull together and not make polarizing issues outta everything...we al get 1 vote, and we will not be fooled(neither will mgt). The days of pulling one over on the other side are gone, whether RD is there or someone else. Just NBFD
12-11-2018, 05:25 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,414
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Sources as diverse as Tim O'Malleys fmr Strategic Planning Chair to Sham Ally on Chit Chat.
It is ironic to watch the MEC who fired Tim Canoll act all bent when his EA finds another gig.
The MEC Admin could take a lesson from Delta management who finds talent (even from a labor union) and grabs it to improve their product.
In contrast, our MEC Admin is now staffed by politicians and committee folks have to become political themselves and get voted on. This last MEC broke the process of even staffing the administration. Our MEC Admin is not identifying the best and the brightest, training and promoting them.
If we are worried that Rick Dominguez, with his big brain and 20 years of relevant experience are going to kick our asses, then why have we had 5 scope Chairmen in two years? (four of whom had nearly zero experience in any position prior to becoming Chairmen and two of whom immediately ran for another office?)
It is ironic to watch the MEC who fired Tim Canoll act all bent when his EA finds another gig.
The MEC Admin could take a lesson from Delta management who finds talent (even from a labor union) and grabs it to improve their product.
In contrast, our MEC Admin is now staffed by politicians and committee folks have to become political themselves and get voted on. This last MEC broke the process of even staffing the administration. Our MEC Admin is not identifying the best and the brightest, training and promoting them.
If we are worried that Rick Dominguez, with his big brain and 20 years of relevant experience are going to kick our asses, then why have we had 5 scope Chairmen in two years? (four of whom had nearly zero experience in any position prior to becoming Chairmen and two of whom immediately ran for another office?)
If this was Game of Thrones this MEC Admin would easily be House of Frey. Management easily the Lannisters.
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12-11-2018, 06:12 AM
#43
Roll’n Thunder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Pilot
Posts: 3,552
Originally Posted by Trip7
Spot on.
If this was Game of Thrones this MEC Admin would easily be House of Frey. Management easily the Lannisters.
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If this was Game of Thrones this MEC Admin would easily be House of Frey. Management easily the Lannisters.
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12-11-2018, 06:30 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by Trip7
Ah Scope, the most (IMO) misunderstood contract language by the majority of the pilot group due to its complexity and the ability of the sight of a foreign 787 to turn a Widget pilot emotional.
As evidenced by Delta's record hiring over the past few years and the shift of Concourse C and D in ATL from RJ land to a 717 hub, our Scope language is strong. Delta has built a strong, robust domestic network and will leverage that into international growth over the next several years since the domestic network has saturated.
I believe our Scope protections are sufficient as is but we should seek improvements that guarantee more Delta growth as international grows before a JV agreement(IE more guaranteed growth with AeroMexico JV even without an LOA). The big question is how to craft that complex language which would require someone very bright. If they have RD on their side, we will need to put politics aside and bring an experienced Scope hammer like TD, RS, or a bright mind like RH.
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As evidenced by Delta's record hiring over the past few years and the shift of Concourse C and D in ATL from RJ land to a 717 hub, our Scope language is strong. Delta has built a strong, robust domestic network and will leverage that into international growth over the next several years since the domestic network has saturated.
I believe our Scope protections are sufficient as is but we should seek improvements that guarantee more Delta growth as international grows before a JV agreement(IE more guaranteed growth with AeroMexico JV even without an LOA). The big question is how to craft that complex language which would require someone very bright. If they have RD on their side, we will need to put politics aside and bring an experienced Scope hammer like TD, RS, or a bright mind like RH.
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“The RJs will feed our international and we will buy countless widebodies.”
“We will not get one more penny if we vote down TA1”
It’s like you were not there for this.
12-11-2018, 06:34 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
OMG---the sky is falling!!
Fact is, mgt was going to hire someone into that position. It could be a bottom line lawyer type, ala Lorenzo, that fails to understand the nuances of labor relations at the airlines and only looks at the bottom line. Might be(but unlikely) that it will be an individual totally sympathetic to pilots and will sell the company down the river. OR, the third alternative is an individual that understands both sides and realizes that a "fair" position is the most advantageous in the long run and also understands the increased importance to the Delta pilots re scope.
RD might be the smartest guy in the room re scope but I can assure you that the collective Borg brain of almost 15,000 pilots trumps his big brain.
With memrat, I just dont see this as a big deal insofar as being "had" by the company.....but it certainly plays into the anti ALPA crowd and the "it's just not right". Face it, the majority of all people do what is in the best intrest of themselves and their families. I am certain no pilot has called in sick because it was the most expedient/advantageous thing to do. Keep picking up rocks in your moral indignation, all it does is divide not unify. All the threats of DPA proves my point(at least to me)
Aren't the same people that are but hurt the same ones that propose spending money on paid negotiators to get the very best? Well, if RD was so smart then why didnt those same people not advocate paying RD an over-ride to protect that "valuable" resource....could you imagine the heel and cry?........haters just gotta hate.
With the ammendable date just over a year away, let's all pull together and not make polarizing issues outta everything...we al get 1 vote, and we will not be fooled(neither will mgt). The days of pulling one over on the other side are gone, whether RD is there or someone else. Just NBFD
Fact is, mgt was going to hire someone into that position. It could be a bottom line lawyer type, ala Lorenzo, that fails to understand the nuances of labor relations at the airlines and only looks at the bottom line. Might be(but unlikely) that it will be an individual totally sympathetic to pilots and will sell the company down the river. OR, the third alternative is an individual that understands both sides and realizes that a "fair" position is the most advantageous in the long run and also understands the increased importance to the Delta pilots re scope.
RD might be the smartest guy in the room re scope but I can assure you that the collective Borg brain of almost 15,000 pilots trumps his big brain.
With memrat, I just dont see this as a big deal insofar as being "had" by the company.....but it certainly plays into the anti ALPA crowd and the "it's just not right". Face it, the majority of all people do what is in the best intrest of themselves and their families. I am certain no pilot has called in sick because it was the most expedient/advantageous thing to do. Keep picking up rocks in your moral indignation, all it does is divide not unify. All the threats of DPA proves my point(at least to me)
Aren't the same people that are but hurt the same ones that propose spending money on paid negotiators to get the very best? Well, if RD was so smart then why didnt those same people not advocate paying RD an over-ride to protect that "valuable" resource....could you imagine the heel and cry?........haters just gotta hate.
With the ammendable date just over a year away, let's all pull together and not make polarizing issues outta everything...we al get 1 vote, and we will not be fooled(neither will mgt). The days of pulling one over on the other side are gone, whether RD is there or someone else. Just NBFD
Butt
As in, no one is more “butt hurt” than Bucking Bar.
12-11-2018, 06:58 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,414
Originally Posted by gzsg
“The RJs are saving our bacon!!!”
“The RJs will feed our international and we will buy countless widebodies.”
“We will not get one more penny if we vote down TA1”
It’s like you were not there for this.
“The RJs will feed our international and we will buy countless widebodies.”
“We will not get one more penny if we vote down TA1”
It’s like you were not there for this.
But you have witnessed what happened in recent LEC elections in ATL and SLC. When people ask you what happened here, tell them the north remembers. Tell them winter came for House Frey
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12-11-2018, 07:13 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,522
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
RD might be the smartest guy in the room re scope but I can assure you that the collective Borg brain of almost 15,000 pilots trumps his big brain.
With memrat, I just dont see this as a big deal insofar as being "had" by the company...
PS is too emotional to really do anything about now, plus they've completely caved to the non cons so that ship has sailed. Any significant attempt to roll that back now would result in a yellow (safety) vest outcry from the proletariat.
Sec 3 is obviously one of the more emphasized sections, as well as where a large portion of the pie resides, but there's no way they can come hard to the paint with something so eye watering that we'll willingly and knowingly cave on Scope at this point.
Work rules are extremely complex and convoluted, (does anyone truly understand just the reroute rules in their entirety and in real time?) but we can expect some attempt to claw some more "productivity" while throwing a few bones the other way for the appearance of balance and/or division. Never underestimate the emotional effect of a small number of "good deals" on one side of the scale in an attempt to balance out disproportionate raw deals for more on the other.
But Scope is the Alpha and the Omega of a CBA. That section determines who every other section applies to and how many jobs thee company can farm outside the CBA in the first place, specifically to avoid the CBA in its entirety. Its not simply a weight on the scale, its the unit of measurement for the scale itself.
While its early WRT the news of this particular position, we're absolutely correct to assume that this may be an attempt to assault, either directly or through obfuscation our Sec 1 in C19.
I agree about the 15,000 observers watching the watchers though. That's our ace in the hole. But only if we don't take anything for granted. Sec 1, especially convoluted language about a million JV's etc is a high threat to watch. They can't sneak us a pay table with cuts in it and get 50.1% but the threat of a Sec 1 with holes in it (i.e. "we didn't think they would do THAT!") is very real.
12-11-2018, 07:26 AM
#49
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
Originally Posted by gzsg
Just flying the line.
I have always advocated a 5 year break from ALPA to management. Obviously that is not going to happen. We get used to by some who will sell their soul for money.
At the end of the day, we have membership ratification. We have proven we have a limit with the rejection of the shameless TA1.
Hopefully we make the major gains across the board warranted by this level of profitability created by the Delta pilots billions in sacrifices and loss of retirement.
Otherwise, we have nothing to fear by voting No.
We will never have an agreement that does not include full retro pay.
I have always advocated a 5 year break from ALPA to management. Obviously that is not going to happen. We get used to by some who will sell their soul for money.
At the end of the day, we have membership ratification. We have proven we have a limit with the rejection of the shameless TA1.
Hopefully we make the major gains across the board warranted by this level of profitability created by the Delta pilots billions in sacrifices and loss of retirement.
Otherwise, we have nothing to fear by voting No.
We will never have an agreement that does not include full retro pay.
I agree there should be a break between DALPA and management - but how would we enforce it?
While DALPA has never been great - over the years they have done some good (COBRA for furloughees) and some bad (guys GSing with dudes on furlough) they now seem totally dysfunctional.
I don't think this is the end of the world but its not good. RD may not be participating against us directly......................now, but who knows what will happen in the future.
Maybe he is better than a Pilot hater - who knows?
DALPA can be greatly improved with a two simple tweaks:
***You must fly in the seat and base you represent - no exceptions. If you are an FO rep and are awarded a Captain seat - adios. If you want to be an FO rep be an FO rep, if you to fly A fly A and run as A. No exceptions.
*** No more than 3 years or 1 MEC/LEC term on FPL and then back to the line for the same amount of time.
Scoop
12-11-2018, 09:40 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: retired 767(dl)
Posts: 5,724
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
Geesh...but...butt... mox nix
There is another typo in there if you look real hard. No point in reading for comprehension when you can castigate and disparage the messenger and others
Thanks for playing word hunt😍
There is another typo in there if you look real hard. No point in reading for comprehension when you can castigate and disparage the messenger and others
Thanks for playing word hunt😍
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