The BK never meant those 50 seaters wouldn’t fly again. They just wouldn’t have flown for Endeavor. How many of those retired planes came back out of the desert? I think 9E was back up to about 50 when I left. Delta owns those planes and could continue to fly them, the NWA deal only specified who would fly them.

As far as 76 seaters, they had about 56 until 16 went to ASA. Then the BK deal took them from 40 to 81. The current number they have is due to frames coming over (and back) from ASA/ExpressJet. They’ll soon add more from the current DCI consolidation. To pin all of 9E’s shrinkage/growth on that scope change ignores the changes throughout the DCI fleet.

The scope change may or may not have changed how many 50 seaters are flying, that would be impossible to know for sure. It would also be impossible to know if they would find a way to add those 50 seat aircraft back in a different airframe or at a different company, but the contract insured they can’t now. (Assuming management honors it)

Ignorance and misconceptions regarding small jet scope at Delta is obviously flourishing.

1300 Mainline Pilots including yours truly were furloughed partly in response to poor strategy regarding scope in the 2002 to 2006 timeframe. Some of this was due to the disruption that a new jet on the scene caused - in the 1990s DAL and many other airlines basically had no or a very limited scope section because it was not needed. DALPA was learning on the job and there were many missteps.

DAL parked the 737 200s and only had 10 737 700s mainly for special airports. The smallest mainline aircraft was the Mad Dog at about 140 seats or whatever the configuration was back then. This is when the scope battle was being fought. DAL was authorized 70 seat RJs in limited number so the 70-140 seat market was where the battle was to be fought.

DALPA caved on 76 seaters but if I remember correctly it was when we were also giving up 42% pay, our retirements, 2 weeks of vacation, work rules galore etc. The point being, this was not a period of gains by mainline Pilots but a time when we were just trying to minimize losses and concessions. It is unrealistic to think while we were giving up everything else we would make gains in scope. We got taken to cleaners throughout our PWA via BK, the RLA, the 1113 process and the courts.

That was then what about now? We ordered the 717 around 2012 and now have C series aircraft. Small jet scope has not increased from our 76 seat give when we were giving everything.

DAL has hired over 4000 Pilots in this time and there is practically zero threat of anything over 76 seats at DCI. This was not always the case. Many thought that DCI would be flying 90 seat RJs but with the C series and the current environment this threat is practically non existent.

DALPA has lost a few small jet battles but won the war. Mainline aircraft went from 140 seat minimum size down to 110 seats with thousands of Pilots hired. RJ flying has decreased no matter what metric you use.

We have already discussed the faulty logic of arguing 50 seaters were going around anyway. They were, but at a very slow rate with plenty of multi-year contracts limiting the reduction.

Anyone concerned about small jet scope is fighting the last war. The new threat is JVs, code shares, open skies etc.

Scoop

Exactly, you can’t just look at one DCI carrier and draw any conclusions. For example, the number of 76-seaters (and 50-seaters) at ASA/XJT is now zero.

Not arguing your post, I agree with most everything. Weren’t the DC-9s around 100 seats, though?

Scope is not a contract item, it is defined at the NMB, permitted flying is the contract item. These are very different things, yet I always see pilots getting them confused. When you say no scope, the correct term is undefined permitted flying. The reason thousands got furloughed at Delta is due to the Comair debacle, and the "force manure". DALPA didn't make any mistakes, they chose seniority over scope, they then gambled they could force the RJ's back on mainline. It probably would have worked, but 9/11 and then the following years...well, you know the story.

Yes, I was covering this issue from my perspective at Delta south.

Scoop

Thanks but I am not confused, or no more than usual :D, just trying to quickly make a point in the vernacular.

Scoop

Yeah, scope issues are determined at the NMB, you can't even strike over scope. The real issue however, is that ALPA, and the other airline unions, have lost at the NMB almost every time over scope. So, even fighting for it can actually set you back in retaining it.

For starters, the CEO position at Endeavor is also concurrently the SVP Delta Connection and Delta Global Services. So our CEO oversees all other Delta Connection carriers. He is a Senior VP at Delta AND CEO of Endeavor. Our last 3 CEO's did the same thing. RG, and BL. **

Delta has full editorial control of our manuals, policies, and procedures. Hence why all of our manuals mirror Delta in philosophy and design.

Delta handles 100% of our IT. It's all done though ATL. If we forget a password, we call Delta IT even for our own intranet.

Delta pilots and employee put on an internal interview prep seminar quarterly or so, just to help prepare us for the Delta interview. It's put on by Delta pilots and I think an HR person if I remember. Could be wrong.

Delta pilots get a referral bonus for referring someone to 9E

I believe our benefits coordinator is a Delta employee from what I was told. Again could be wrong.

Obviously the higher pass travel and JS priority than any other DCI carrier.

Any and all net profit earned by 9E directly contribute to Delta profitability (and profit sharing). You can call us fee for departure, but in reality you're just paying yourselves. We don't have shareholders.

We have access to the Delta gym in MSP, DTW, and ATL. (Haha I know, but it made the list)

And most importantly... We get the Delta discount on food at the hot bar in LGA!!



Now, are we treated any differently by Delta pilots than any other DCI carrier? No not really. "I thought you guys flew for AA"..."you're thinking of Envoy" (weekly this conversation happens)


**
"David Garrison is Senior Vice President – Delta Connection and Delta Global Services, CEO Endeavor Air for Delta Air Lines. In this role he oversees all aspects of the more than 2,300 daily departures for Delta’s six regional partner airlines. Additionally, he has responsibility for Delta’s wholly owned subsidiary, Delta Global Services, which encompasses more than 20,000 employees and is a leading supplier of aviation services across the United States, Bahamas and Guam. As CEO of Endeavor Air, David leads Delta’s wholly owned regional carrier which operates more than 700 daily departures under the Delta Connection brand."



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That's kinda my whole point. They will never all go away.......unless they come back to mainline and I just don't see that happening anytime soon. At this point I think top end Scope is the most important for everyone.

Denny