Originally Posted by crewdawg (Post 2960001)

3% of our pilot group are at the top Capt pay rate, 7% if you include the 330/764 and only 20% of the group are even above our 7ER rate. It would be an interesting to see what we think a banded pay scale would look like here and cost out a normal career.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2960107)

You omitted copilot positions on those aircraft which is a huge omission. Total number of Delta pilots working on the A330/767-400 or larger is about 18% of the list or almost 1 out of 5 pilots. Captains only is 8.1% based on the Aug 2020 staffing forecast.

Originally Posted by crewdawg (Post 2960109)

Not really, I specifically said Captains, and it's pretty much the same percentage on the FO side. So ~7-8% are at the top Capt AND FO pay rate. In the very post you quoted I specifically said there are ~20% in the 330/764 and above. None of that changes my point.

Originally Posted by BlueSkies (Post 2960111)

Total noob question here.

Looking at, say ATL 717A, there are no vacancies posted. As long as they don't say they won't back-fill that category then presumably as people move up out of 717A then others will move into 717A? And this is the "waterfall" effect everyone talks about?

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2960112)

We carry more copilots than Captains because of the relief pilot.

Originally Posted by BlueSkies (Post 2960111)

Total noob question here.

Looking at, say ATL 717A, there are no vacancies posted. As long as they don't say they won't back-fill that category then presumably as people move up out of 717A then others will move into 717A? And this is the "waterfall" effect everyone talks about?

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2960114)

Yes, this bid will generate tremendous movement across all fleets. Even if on this bid they don’t backfill specific positions they will have to be posted on the next bid to be filled unless the category is shrinking. The only category currently shrinking is the MD88.

Originally Posted by FL370esq (Post 2960122)

Not really a "waterfall" but rather more like a small trickle when talking Captain vacancies at the lowest paying NBs. 😊.

In theory, there would be backfills for any/all contingent vacancies but CR might limit the number of backfills if excessive training would be generated in other categories leaving to backfill in the ATL717A category. You just don't know what CR was thinking until the award is posted. This one is fairly significant so I would not be surprised if they fail to fill all published vacancies much less honor all/most backfill/contingency vacancies. There will be a-l-o-t of training events generated by this AE. Enjoy the ride!!! 😊

Originally Posted by BlueSkies (Post 2960145)

Thanks, good to know.









Also good to know! I'm not expecting to upgrade anytime soon (still ~1000 away from NYC717A) but definitely watching a bit more closely now. Thanks.

Originally Posted by bugman61 (Post 2960162)

I wouldn’t be surprised if 717A or 220A drops 1000 numbers on this bid. Being junior in nyc is not for everyone so it doesn’t take a ton of vacancies to get down the list.

Originally Posted by BlueSkies (Post 2960240)

I'm not adventurous enough to bid for NYC anything, much less a res CA. It will be interesting to see how low it gets.

Originally Posted by waldo135 (Post 2960312)

Just wait till Boston actually opens and all the NE folks leave NYC. Bet it REALLY gets junior then.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2960114)

Yes, this bid will generate tremendous movement across all fleets. Even if on this bid they don’t backfill specific positions they will have to be posted on the next bid to be filled unless the category is shrinking. The only category currently shrinking is the MD88.

Originally Posted by FL370esq (Post 2960122)

In theory, there would be backfills for any/all contingent vacancies but CR might limit the number of backfills if excessive training would be generated in other categories leaving to backfill in the ATL717A category. You just don't know what CR was thinking until the award is posted. This one is fairly significant so I would not be surprised if they fail to fill all published vacancies much less honor all/most backfill/contingency vacancies. There will be a-l-o-t of training events generated by this AE. Enjoy the ride!!! 😊

Originally Posted by BlueSkies (Post 2960145)

Also good to know! I'm not expecting to upgrade anytime soon (still ~1000 away from NYC717A) but definitely watching a bit more closely now. Thanks.

Originally Posted by BlueSkies (Post 2960240)

I'm not adventurous enough to bid for NYC anything, much less a res CA. It will be interesting to see how low it gets.

Originally Posted by Han Solo (Post 2960326)

I missed the shrinking md88 part. Is that both captain and FO and is it just via attrition this bid?

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2960346)

The MD88/90 fleet is in a retirement phase. Not sure how you missed that. They can leave positions unfilled and still remain within contractual rules. All other fleets would require backfill. Backfill does not however have to be on this bid. It can be on a subsequent bid. In the case of the MD88 read the letter attached to the bid. It lays out the current plans for displacements. They may or may not backfill MD88 CA’s depending on several things. They likely will not have bidders to backfill copilot seats so placed openings in the bid to allow new hires. The point of the post was all other fleets must be back filled unless flight ops goes to network and requests a reduction in block hours. That is highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by Han Solo (Post 2960351)

There's so much wrong here I don't even know where to begin. I just skimmed the memo and thought perhaps I missed something and asked what should've been a simple question to answer.

Originally Posted by BlueSkies (Post 2960145)

Thanks, good to know.




Also good to know! I'm not expecting to upgrade anytime soon (still ~1000 away from NYC717A) but definitely watching a bit more closely now. Thanks.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2960114)

Yes, this bid will generate tremendous movement across all fleets. Even if on this bid they don’t backfill specific positions they will have to be posted on the next bid to be filled unless the category is shrinking. The only category currently shrinking is the MD88.

Originally Posted by Gunfighter (Post 2960447)

LAX 777 is also shrinking via attrition on this bid.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2960371)

What exactly is wrong?

Originally Posted by CX500T (Post 2960197)

Currently at 98% on the ER in nyc after 2 years.

I put down 320, 73N, 220, 717 Captain.
As a wildcard, 765 and 330 FO.

Realistic bids are ER ATL if I get xx percent or better.

Schedule cant really get worse I'm already doing mostly coverage days on reserve Actually got a line for February, but that's a fluke and full of uncommutable.

We will see how junior it goes. I seriously doubt it will go below 12,500 but who knows.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2960346)

The MD88/90 fleet is in a retirement phase. Not sure how you missed that. They can leave positions unfilled and still remain within contractual rules. All other fleets would require backfill. Backfill does not however have to be on this bid. It can be on a subsequent bid. In the case of the MD88 read the letter attached to the bid. It lays out the current plans for displacements. They may or may not backfill MD88 CA’s depending on several things. They likely will not have bidders to backfill copilot seats so placed openings in the bid to allow new hires. The point of the post was all other fleets must be back filled unless flight ops goes to network and requests a reduction in block hours. That is highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 2960546)

To be clear, nothing contractually requires backfill. You seem to be saying that, but it is completely incorrect. If you are saying that they won’t be able to staff the flying correctly without backfill, the yes, that is correct.

Originally Posted by Han Solo (Post 2960328)

They did say they would backfill ATL 717, I don't think there will be enough 717 training this bid for them to not fulfill that statement.



Just curious, have you ever commuted to RES? Moreso, have you done it with the 3 airport requirement, NYC weather, NYC airspace, NYC uncommutable trips, and NYC hotel/crashpad costs? I'm not saying it can't be done, but there are reasons NYC NB As are so junior. Also, bidding NYC A with the expectation of moving to a more preferable base in a short period of time is a fool's gambit. Now, if you live in the local area then disregard and good luck!



Ooops, next page, good choice sir. Don't completely rule-out NYC as there are opportunities (think line holding WB B), especially if you're commuting somewhere else anyway. Just go in with your eyes wide open.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2960371)

What exactly is wrong?

Originally Posted by Baradium (Post 2960691)

There was a statement that positions were offered on the 88 because there wouldn't be enough bidders to backfill... but if they elect to backfill and there aren't bidders for those positions, can't those positions also be offered to new hires?

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2960762)

Only if they are posted on a AE first.

Originally Posted by Rinaldi (Post 2960773)

are you sure? I always thought an unfilled contingency vacancy can go to a new hire.

Originally Posted by Rinaldi (Post 2960773)

are you sure? I always thought an unfilled contingency vacancy can go to a new hire.

Originally Posted by FL370esq (Post 2960775)

Yup...he is correct. A contingency vacancy is not a category vacancy. See 22.E.10 and 22.A.9

Originally Posted by Baradium (Post 2960776)

"category vacancy" just means that the only ones available for new hires are First Officer positions, it is not mentioned as "category vacancy" as a regular AE either.

Originally Posted by FL370esq (Post 2960778)

The question was about contingency vacancies. A new hire cannot be awarded a contingency vacancy. That vacancy would have to be posted as a category vacancy in a subsequent AE and, if unbid, then becomes eligible to be filled by a new hire. Look at 22.E.1.c. I didn't write the PWA, just telling you how it works.
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Originally Posted by Baradium (Post 2960780)

I'm looking at the PWA. I just don't agree that it says that as clearly as you state. That doesn't mean the company doesn't fill them like that but I recall class drops including contingent positions that were never offered in a subsequent AE.

Originally Posted by FL370esq (Post 2960783)

Are you sure they were contingent vacancies? Got an example? Not calling you out but I'd like to see where a vacancy not offered to the pilot group at large was, instead, proffered to a new hire.

Originally Posted by tunes (Post 2960520)

98% in the right seat? With 90 vacancies even if they fill half, it's going to go super junior. We are expecting ~20 new hires on the ER alone in March.