35 Large RJs coming back?
05-04-2021, 11:20 AM
#111
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by Vsop
Sailing this isn’t meant to be directed at you just using the language you quoted in the LOA.
The company seems to view the “at another carrier” language as permission to substitute an Endeavor flow agreement. I think that because we have been without a flow agreement we have moved past this language and the company can’t retroactively add Endeavor. I think this language would have come into play if we had a flow “at another carrier” prior to the Compass being terminated, and would have allowed the RJs to stay in the DCI system.
In my opinion once the company had to park the 35 RJs, other language for modifying or canceling the LOA became the “effective” section.
If I haven’t said it enough, just my opinion I’m not a lawyer.
The company seems to view the “at another carrier” language as permission to substitute an Endeavor flow agreement. I think that because we have been without a flow agreement we have moved past this language and the company can’t retroactively add Endeavor. I think this language would have come into play if we had a flow “at another carrier” prior to the Compass being terminated, and would have allowed the RJs to stay in the DCI system.
In my opinion once the company had to park the 35 RJs, other language for modifying or canceling the LOA became the “effective” section.
If I haven’t said it enough, just my opinion I’m not a lawyer.
05-04-2021, 12:18 PM
#115
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,067
Originally Posted by Mesabah
I think it would be all contained in the same LOA, not sure though.
05-04-2021, 12:39 PM
#116
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Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,544
Originally Posted by JamesBond
SO what do you think the pilots' sentiment towards it would be? For? Against? If against, is it worth 'paying' something to ensure it dies before being born? Maybe management has no interest either, but are using it to get us to spend capital for nothing.
All I can say is that I had a senior flight ops VP on my jumpseat once a few years ago, and he told me that because of the attitudes displayed some from the last flow thru, if he had any say in the matter there would never be another. Take that for what it's worth. Now I freely admit that person is no longer here, but I am sure his feelings were not solitary. It won't affect me one way or another, but I would personally be against it.
If they really do want it, then it has value. What is it worth? I'd trade a little bottom end for a lot of top end.
All I can say is that I had a senior flight ops VP on my jumpseat once a few years ago, and he told me that because of the attitudes displayed some from the last flow thru, if he had any say in the matter there would never be another. Take that for what it's worth. Now I freely admit that person is no longer here, but I am sure his feelings were not solitary. It won't affect me one way or another, but I would personally be against it.
If they really do want it, then it has value. What is it worth? I'd trade a little bottom end for a lot of top end.
I first heard the story of the jump seating VP when I was still a regional pilot. I’ve heard it since then. I think plans have changed. I think management sees how badly they need to bring up capacity to compete with the other airlines that didn’t put themselves in a large staffing hole. ATL doesn’t have training capacity to hire many pilots to bring back “retired” airplanes or staff accelerated deliveries. They do have multiple regional partners who can spool up to staff 35 RJs that haven’t been put into long term storage like they were supposed to. Those planes and the flow are a short term stop gap that may get taken away by an arbitrator after a drawn out grievance. Or, if management gets their way, those planes stay anyway.
05-04-2021, 01:07 PM
#118
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Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 852
Sailingfun is on the right track. In 2009 Delta had a flow with CPZ, and "other carrier" language (it related to wholly-owned) that resulted in over 100 Mesaba pilots flowing up to the mainline.
Two things to remember:
1. Delta HR can hire any pilot they want, any time they want. We don't control who is hired, unless it's written into an LOA that we sign. The flow LOA had details. If they choose to implement a Faux Flow...they can. Controlling the rate that the mainline interrupts the staffing at their feeder is the benefit of a published Faux Flow. They don't need our approval to do that. [Possible names: "Family Farming", "Preferential Sick-Call Screening", "Quarter Quell",]
2. ThunderJackson should have just gone straight to Delta after he got his Commercial/ME. Why spend all that time at a regional?
Two things to remember:
1. Delta HR can hire any pilot they want, any time they want. We don't control who is hired, unless it's written into an LOA that we sign. The flow LOA had details. If they choose to implement a Faux Flow...they can. Controlling the rate that the mainline interrupts the staffing at their feeder is the benefit of a published Faux Flow. They don't need our approval to do that. [Possible names: "Family Farming", "Preferential Sick-Call Screening", "Quarter Quell",]
2. ThunderJackson should have just gone straight to Delta after he got his Commercial/ME. Why spend all that time at a regional?
05-04-2021, 02:20 PM
#119
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Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,117
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Exception two: In the event the hiring or flow provisions of NWA LOA 2006-10 or LOA #9 cease to be available, either at the feeder carrier affiliate referenced in such LOAs or at another carrier, the number of permitted 76-seat aircraft in Section 1 B. 5 47. e. will be reduced by 35.
"The flow rights of Compass pilots will no longer be effective upon a sale or divestiture of Compass, partial or complete, that results in Compass no longer being an affiliate (as defined in the PWA) of Trans States Holdings, Inc. In such event, Delta, Compass, and the Association will meet and confer for the purpose of discussing whether continuation or modification of this LOA would be appropriate given the circumstances at that time. Any continuation or modification will require the agreement of Delta, Compass, and the Association."
Seems the bold print is where we are now. I just don't see an arbitrator allowing the Company to unilaterally initiate a flow agreement with Endeavor (or anyone else) in order to satisfy LOA#9 which in turn would satisfy exception 2 to PWA 1.B.47.f.
05-04-2021, 02:23 PM
#120
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Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: CaptFo
Posts: 997
Originally Posted by Karnak
Sailingfun is on the right track. In 2009 Delta had a flow with CPZ, and "other carrier" language (it related to wholly-owned) that resulted in over 100 Mesaba pilots flowing up to the mainline.
Two things to remember:
1. Delta HR can hire any pilot they want, any time they want. We don't control who is hired, unless it's written into an LOA that we sign. The flow LOA had details. If they choose to implement a Faux Flow...they can. Controlling the rate that the mainline interrupts the staffing at their feeder is the benefit of a published Faux Flow. They don't need our approval to do that. [Possible names: "Family Farming", "Preferential Sick-Call Screening", "Quarter Quell",]
2. ThunderJackson should have just gone straight to Delta after he got his Commercial/ME. Why spend all that time at a regional?
Two things to remember:
1. Delta HR can hire any pilot they want, any time they want. We don't control who is hired, unless it's written into an LOA that we sign. The flow LOA had details. If they choose to implement a Faux Flow...they can. Controlling the rate that the mainline interrupts the staffing at their feeder is the benefit of a published Faux Flow. They don't need our approval to do that. [Possible names: "Family Farming", "Preferential Sick-Call Screening", "Quarter Quell",]
2. ThunderJackson should have just gone straight to Delta after he got his Commercial/ME. Why spend all that time at a regional?
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