Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-23-2012 | 07:20 PM
Gets Weekends Off
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From: 765-A
05-23-2012 | 07:22 PM
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From: Capt
05-23-2012 | 07:22 PM
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From: B737 CA
05-23-2012 | 07:23 PM
Happy to be here
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From: A-320A
One thing you guys must at least consider with DCI, we need the feed and 117 seat jets cannot do all of it. The Cseries could, but it is a few years to market. For the near term(3-8 yrs) we need lift or we will lack a domestic feed network and go the way of Pan Am.
No one likes the RJ sales, no one, but as Sink said, there is a broader picture on this issue. There are many really good items in Section 1. I also agree that the costing of them is probably not in our favor. Out of all of the fears that many had, some came true in section 1, but so did the quids.
In the rest of the agreement, I have not talked to one pilot that has their expectations met, even with the expectation RA created with a expedited process and an agreement prior the amendable date. It comes down to if you are OK with the work rule and compensation scheme changes in the current TA or not.
No one likes the RJ sales, no one, but as Sink said, there is a broader picture on this issue. There are many really good items in Section 1. I also agree that the costing of them is probably not in our favor. Out of all of the fears that many had, some came true in section 1, but so did the quids.
In the rest of the agreement, I have not talked to one pilot that has their expectations met, even with the expectation RA created with a expedited process and an agreement prior the amendable date. It comes down to if you are OK with the work rule and compensation scheme changes in the current TA or not.
05-23-2012 | 07:31 PM
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From: B757/767
The TA prevents AF/KLM from hauling DL passengers during a DL strike? Really? Because under a release to self-help, management is generally not held to their contractual obligations. I can easily see a scenario where DL strikes, DCI keeps working but is rerouted (perhaps in advance) into a nationwide network, and AF/KLM hauls all HVCs to Europe (perhaps even adding a few sections).
a. There will be no increased use of the DL code (i.e., an increase over and above that which was loaded in Deltamatic in the 90-day period prior to the commencement of the cooling off period) by AF, KLM, or AZ during a cooling off period (under 7 Section 5, 6, or 10 of the Railway Labor Act) applicable to Delta pilots. In the event of a lawful primary strike against Delta by the Delta pilots, the DL code will not be used by AF, KLM, or AZ at any time during such strike.
b. There will be no payments other than those payments occurring during the ordinary course of business to Delta from AF, KLM, or AZ during a cooling off period (under Section 5, 6, or 10 of the Railway Labor Act) applicable to Delta pilots or a lawful strike by Delta pilots.
c. No airman trained by AF, KLM, or AZ in the prior 12 months will be hired to serve as a Delta pilot during a cooling off period (under Section 5, 6 or 10 of the Railway Labor Act) applicable to Delta pilots or a lawful strike by Delta pilots.
d. There will be no increased use of the AF, KLM, and/or AZ code (i.e., an increase over and above that which was loaded in Deltamatic in the 90-day period prior to the commencement of the strike) by Delta during a lawful strike by the AF, KLM, and/or AZ airmen.
e. Without the consent of the Delta MEC Chairman, there will be no increase of gauge on any Delta route which carries the AF, KLM, and/or AZ code (i.e., an increase over and above that which was loaded in Deltamatic in the 90-day period prior to the commencement of the strike) during a lawful strike by the AF, KLM, and/or AZ airmen.
9. Definitions for the terms EASK, acquisition and competing operations contained in the 27 AF/KL/AZ JV agreement that are incorporated by reference into this LOAthe PWA shall 28 not be amended without the consent of the Delta MEC. The baseline EASK allocation, 29 the Bundle 1 definition and the competing operations capacity limit may not be changed 30 except as provided in Section 1 P. 4. and Section 1 P. 7., respectively.
05-23-2012 | 07:33 PM
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One thing you guys must at least consider with DCI, we need the feed and 117 seat jets cannot do all of it. The Cseries could, but it is a few years to market. For the near term(3-8 yrs) we need lift or we will lack a domestic feed network and go the way of Pan Am.
No one likes the RJ sales, no one, but as Sink said, there is a broader picture on this issue. There are many really good items in Section 1. I also agree that the costing of them is probably not in our favor. Out of all of the fears that many had, some came true in section 1, but so did the quids.
In the rest of the agreement, I have not talked to one pilot that has their expectations met, even with the expectation RA created with a expedited process and an agreement prior the amendable date. It comes down to if you are OK with the work rule and compensation scheme changes in the current TA or not.
No one likes the RJ sales, no one, but as Sink said, there is a broader picture on this issue. There are many really good items in Section 1. I also agree that the costing of them is probably not in our favor. Out of all of the fears that many had, some came true in section 1, but so did the quids.
In the rest of the agreement, I have not talked to one pilot that has their expectations met, even with the expectation RA created with a expedited process and an agreement prior the amendable date. It comes down to if you are OK with the work rule and compensation scheme changes in the current TA or not.
Remember, they can have as many RJ as they want today, as long as we fly them.
I see nothing wrong with that. Might want to ask management what there plan b is as it has been revealed that they ordered these extra RJs late last year.
05-23-2012 | 07:33 PM
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From: B757/767
05-23-2012 | 07:35 PM
Back on TDY
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From: 747-400 Captain
No one likes the RJ sales, no one, but as Sink said, there is a broader picture on this issue. There are many really good items in Section 1. I also agree that the costing of them is probably not in our favor. Out of all of the fears that many had, some came true in section 1, but so did the quids.
Carl
05-23-2012 | 07:35 PM
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From: B757/767
Honest question. Not meant to be inflammatory. Do we have verification of an RJ order last year by Delta?
05-23-2012 | 07:36 PM
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From: MD88
It's undoubtedly Scope up, but that's the problem.
Everyone always says Scope is number one, not money. Here we have a deal that improves Scope and the proportion of outsourced flying, but has marginal money. And it doesn't compute for a lot of us. In fact, We've always sold scope for money, and here we're actually making a purchase.
Everyone is shiIIing themselves, because they've been caught in this contradiction.
People trying to ride the Scope issue on behalf of DPA are shiIIing themselves, because ALPA did something not even the most ardent Scope hawk thought would happen: they put negotiating capital in Section 1. Guys that said they would retire if the got medical help are shiIIing themselves, because they were hoping to see the payout for staying, and making a choice to hang out or not.
And guys always said the Reserve sytem was broken and needed fixing. But between the recent improvements and the new guarantee, Reserve isn't a second-class job anymore, and Reserve might actually become a senior winter activity, and a rewarding summer job. And guys re shiIIing themselves, of course, because we actually spent negotiating capital on, what, Reserve? Yes, we spent negotiating capital on Reserve. I sheet you not!
And everyone is looking at the marginal money, and they're shiIIing themselves, because they realize we finally did what we should have always done, which is to negotiate payrate last, and they're shiIIing themselves when they realize how much was left for that (payrates) which they, deep down, covet most.
Last but not least, guys are shiIIing themselves because they realize the entire deal was crafted by Delta with just enough money, and that we're just nervous enough about te economy, and TVM, that the math makes the deal difficult to turn down. Guys just need to turn on CNBC to start shiIIing themselves.
And guys are also starting to realize, when they look left, and when they look right, that the % increases they hoped for are probably not the % increases in the survey. I don't know the numbers, and I would guess the actual results are lower than the survey, but not by much.
So everyone expected the usual bs, where ALPA would come back with more 76-seaters but a bigger increase to show for it, and everyone would grumble about Scope being sold, then count their money. And never even give a passing thought about what a TA looks like, where you actually purchase yourself some Scope. Which brings home the point that contracts aren't free, and since we're years away from being able to apply the leverage of a strike, our feelings have little to do with it. As some love to quote on the other forum, we don't get what we deserve, we get what we negotiate.
ALPA is like a hunting dog we sent into the field, months ago, to get a bird we didn't really want to eat. Now, it's emerging with the damn thing in its' mouth. I didn't see it coming either, to be perfectly honest.
No wonder everyone is shiIIing themselves.
Everyone always says Scope is number one, not money. Here we have a deal that improves Scope and the proportion of outsourced flying, but has marginal money. And it doesn't compute for a lot of us. In fact, We've always sold scope for money, and here we're actually making a purchase.
Everyone is shiIIing themselves, because they've been caught in this contradiction.
People trying to ride the Scope issue on behalf of DPA are shiIIing themselves, because ALPA did something not even the most ardent Scope hawk thought would happen: they put negotiating capital in Section 1. Guys that said they would retire if the got medical help are shiIIing themselves, because they were hoping to see the payout for staying, and making a choice to hang out or not.
And guys always said the Reserve sytem was broken and needed fixing. But between the recent improvements and the new guarantee, Reserve isn't a second-class job anymore, and Reserve might actually become a senior winter activity, and a rewarding summer job. And guys re shiIIing themselves, of course, because we actually spent negotiating capital on, what, Reserve? Yes, we spent negotiating capital on Reserve. I sheet you not!
And everyone is looking at the marginal money, and they're shiIIing themselves, because they realize we finally did what we should have always done, which is to negotiate payrate last, and they're shiIIing themselves when they realize how much was left for that (payrates) which they, deep down, covet most.
Last but not least, guys are shiIIing themselves because they realize the entire deal was crafted by Delta with just enough money, and that we're just nervous enough about te economy, and TVM, that the math makes the deal difficult to turn down. Guys just need to turn on CNBC to start shiIIing themselves.
And guys are also starting to realize, when they look left, and when they look right, that the % increases they hoped for are probably not the % increases in the survey. I don't know the numbers, and I would guess the actual results are lower than the survey, but not by much.
So everyone expected the usual bs, where ALPA would come back with more 76-seaters but a bigger increase to show for it, and everyone would grumble about Scope being sold, then count their money. And never even give a passing thought about what a TA looks like, where you actually purchase yourself some Scope. Which brings home the point that contracts aren't free, and since we're years away from being able to apply the leverage of a strike, our feelings have little to do with it. As some love to quote on the other forum, we don't get what we deserve, we get what we negotiate.
ALPA is like a hunting dog we sent into the field, months ago, to get a bird we didn't really want to eat. Now, it's emerging with the damn thing in its' mouth. I didn't see it coming either, to be perfectly honest.
No wonder everyone is shiIIing themselves.
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