And the Delta/SWA approach has worked so poorly! Here we are both at the bottom of the passenger airliner business while the hard core unions are enjoying such amazing success!

Takes two to tango though. Its really not fair to paint what's going over at AA as pilot union blustering in the face of constructive engagement by an honest company. Time and time again an airline will get the union they deserve, yet many can't seem to crack the code.

But where would DL and their relationship with DALPA be if DL management was as hostile and incompetent as AA? Constructive? Doubtful.

Post 111,111 sweet!

But DD, what if management was "us vs them"? Would we still do constructive engagement?

And if not, how do we look at them and say their way is a failure or wrong?

Look at SWA, they seem to be a constructively engaged relationship from the start. On the other hand, AMR just never seemed to be constructive about anything, they played cut throat with anything and everything. We might have been just as angry as their pilots by this point.

To kind of give a Bar analogy, to me it's kind of like young adults. Some came from a good household where they were loved, like Delta and SWA for instance. Some were born with a silver spoon in their mouth with aristocratic parents who were angry and divisive, like AMR.

Some parents were never home, like UAL. And some were physically abused by their parents and a multitude of step parents, or live in boyfriends and girlfriends, that the kids were just clinically depressed and who actively think about burning the house down while everyone is sleeping inside, like CAL.

All kidding aside, to point fingers at them for any reason I think is unfair. We may share the skies, tarmacs and airplane types, we're not walking in their shoes.

Then you must like poorly worded questions, subject to wide interpretation, according to the whatever the "grader" feels like.

The test asked to "find x", the student found x, and circled it and everything.

To get the answer we ASSUME they wanted (we don't really know what they wanted), the test should have asked "Find the length of the side, labeled 'x', of the triangle shown".

Ask crappy questions, you get crappy answers. Details matter.

Thanks for making my point, Bar.

Nu

Nu.

Currently leadership gives bad news; no growth et al, a little churn in the leadership ranks, good news arrives. New leadership good, old bad. Forget about rainy days and TA shortcomings, and enjoy growth. :)

Not saying it going to happen, but the up and down of all of the news sure makes it seem like a possible scenario.

I think what you're describing isn't a boat, it's a pot of water slowly being brought to boil. Ribbit.

:D

This TA allowed debt to be restructured. That will allow the growth. Not what you see in it.

In the AMS roadshow a comment was made about our debt being "near" our target number. If true, that's a lot lower and a lot quicker than the projections.....

Time to post something we can all agree on......a pretty picture.:)


In spite of last nights NFL game, something good came out of it. Here is a nice piece of underboob cheese!



http://coedmagazine.files.wordpress....derboob-19.jpg


^^^^Hmmm....do I see mooseknuckle?^^^^

No acknowledgment that "hard core unions" are a direct result of "hard core management" at those other airlines? Given DAL's current, relatively enlightened management, I think it's reasonable to argue that constructive engagement is more productive than hardball tactics. The same would manifestly not be true at UA and AA. Yet I've heard Moak (when he was at DALPA), BH, and others in the administration deride other pilot groups for not buying into constructive engagement regardless of their own management groups. It makes me think that 1) the Moakist camp is enamored of constructive engagement for its own sake rather than as one of several weapons/tactics to be used depending on circumstances and 2) these guys are not trade unionists in the least, as they'll gladly criticize their "union brothers" behind their backs without one word of empathy for the challenges they face.

I've come to conclude Moakism basically believes each airline is its own island, and buys into the idea of ALPA national basically being just a services provider to individual unions. That's been reflected in Moak's rather hands-off tenure as ALPA president, where the only things we hear from ALPA national are KCM and combating laser lights - not a peep about the huge, profession-wide issues that defined Dave Behncke's dream of a national pilot's union.