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Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 657498)
If so, it's also a very distinct possibility (make that: a certainty) that they're doing an absolutely lousy job communicating it to the membership.
I believe you. I think the scope issue is being used for other purposes. The problem is this: the people working on the solutions aren't not going to continue working on solutions if they can't, you know, show their work. Good work, horrific marketing. Fact is that as I stated before, people very close to the action do not like what they see. That leads me to one conclusion. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 657488)
Oh so much to see........
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Originally Posted by newKnow
(Post 657502)
Been there, so methinks I sense a bit of sarcasm. :D
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 657500)
Fact is that as I stated before, people very close to the action do not like what they see. That leads me to one conclusion.
Why not just be a union and unify pilots?
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 657503)
Just a bit, but I have caught up on my reading and a few other things. Oh well. It could be worse I could be in Africa......
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Originally Posted by Tomcat
(Post 657495)
What's your solution?
2. Establish a framework for a common contract, possibly a long term arrangement where pay rates are based on mainline narrow body rates. 3. Harmonize work rules and PBS bidding, use the Delta PBS and work rules as the starting standard, modify as necessary 4. Establish a comprehensive flow up/flow down arrangement 5. Determine a seniority/fence agreement for connections and mainline 6. Negotiate for a full integration of connection carriers and update the scope agreements to recognize this change 7. Negotiate a common CBA 8. Welcome aboard a bunch of new Delta pilots 9. Drink lots of beer This process would probably take 3-5 years total. This is just a rough outline, obviously this makes it look much easier than it really would be. Each one of those steps is a pretty big deal. As you can see, in my perfect little world the first step would be getting as many connection carriers as possible together and start to work on steps 1-3. I don't know if the rumors are correct, but if those guys are meeting this week I think it is a good thing. I think the first RJ-50's were delivered in 1997 or 1998, someone can correct me if I am off here. After 10-12 years of getting to where we are today, to expect a simple contract agreement to wipe it out in the short term is probably impossible. If we really want to get this done, then we have to realize the enormous cost and effort and be proactive about finding solutions. Problems are easy, solutions are hard. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 657503)
Just a bit, but I have caught up on my reading and a few other things. Oh well. It could be worse I could be in Africa......
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Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 657508)
1. Determine a seniority integration methodology for all interested carriers. Airtight, signed sealed and delivered. Probably base the outcome partly on date of hire and partly on status/category.
Done, ALPA merger policy 2. Establish a framework for a common contract, possibly a long term arrangement where pay rates are based on mainline narrow body rates. How do we negotiate contracts for pilots we do not represent? If we don't represent them, how do we keep them from undercutting each other, as Comair and SkyWest have done while ASA was in negotiations, or starting up new alter ego airlines like GoJets? 3. Harmonize work rules and PBS bidding, use the Delta PBS and work rules as the starting standard, modify as necessaryAgain, we lack the authority to represent pilots at the DCI carriers. 4. Establish a comprehensive flow up/flow down arrangement - does not prevent outsourcing to lower cost workers (in fact could be used to facilitate pay loss for Delta pilots transferred off property) - does not transfer flying to mainline - does not protect mainline jobs 5. Determine a seniority/fence agreement for connections and mainline - depends on promises that management has shown they are unable to keep 6. Negotiate for a full integration of connection carriers and update the scope agreements to recognize this change - very expensive, but APA is going to try it. Moak says it will cost 2 Billion (LEC44 March meeting) 7. Negotiate a common CBA 8. Welcome aboard a bunch of new Delta pilots 9. Drink lots of beer This process would probably take 3-5 years total. This is just a rough outline, obviously this makes it look much easier than it really would be. Each one of those steps is a pretty big deal. As you can see, in my perfect little world the first step would be getting as many connection carriers as possible together and start to work on steps 1-3. I don't know if the rumors are correct, but if those guys are meeting this week I think it is a good thing. Your thoughts are appreciated and we want the same thing. I think the Compass bit is a reasonable start towards our common goals. I think the first RJ-50's were delivered in 1997 or 1998, someone can correct me if I am off here. After 10-12 years of getting to where we are today, to expect a simple contract agreement to wipe it out in the short term is probably impossible. If we really want to get this done, then we have to realize the enormous cost and effort and be proactive about finding solutions. Problems are easy, solutions are hard. That's why we need economic analysis to start. To show those in power that there is a way to negotiate this. That there is enough benefit that it is worth the political risk to reverse long standing policy. Frankly, there is such powerful legitimacy in a unity platform to make the first ALPA politician to pull it off a real life hero. They did a good job holding the NWA merger together. |
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 657508)
1. Determine a seniority integration methodology for all interested carriers. Airtight, signed sealed and delivered. Probably base the outcome partly on date of hire and partly on status/category.
2. Establish a framework for a common contract, possibly a long term arrangement where pay rates are based on mainline narrow body rates. 3. Harmonize work rules and PBS bidding, use the Delta PBS and work rules as the starting standard, modify as necessary 4. Establish a comprehensive flow up/flow down arrangement 5. Determine a seniority/fence agreement for connections and mainline 6. Negotiate for a full integration of connection carriers and update the scope agreements to recognize this change 7. Negotiate a common CBA 8. Welcome aboard a bunch of new Delta pilots 9. Drink lots of beer This process would probably take 3-5 years total. This is just a rough outline, obviously this makes it look much easier than it really would be. Each one of those steps is a pretty big deal. As you can see, in my perfect little world the first step would be getting as many connection carriers as possible together and start to work on steps 1-3. I don't know if the rumors are correct, but if those guys are meeting this week I think it is a good thing. I think the first RJ-50's were delivered in 1997 or 1998, someone can correct me if I am off here. After 10-12 years of getting to where we are today, to expect a simple contract agreement to wipe it out in the short term is probably impossible. If we really want to get this done, then we have to realize the enormous cost and effort and be proactive about finding solutions. Problems are easy, solutions are hard. I do not think that any one of us thinks that a simple section 1 change resolves this issue. Many of us have seen the the plague grow from the other side. DAL management has made this more difficult as Bar pointed out by contracting to any one that was willing. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 657500)
That has been my point. Prove it. To date no one has. Is it because they do not want to show their hand, or is it that there is no hand to show. Fact is that as I stated before, people very close to the action do not like what they see. That leads me to one conclusion.
As for the part in bold, your statement is equally unproven. With due respect, your word is often valid, but it is only your word. Your claim that something unholy is occurring is your conclusion, based on a second party's assessment, of yet a third party's actions. That makes it fourth-hand to me. You do prove one point, however, and that is that the MEC, by doing such a poor job of presenting their opinion, or showing the nature of their work, is leaving it wide open to being painted with whatever brush anyone else choses. I'm equally suspicious of the opposition, and their motives. I think they're riding the "scope" train for rather dubious goals. But you can't fault them for trying whatever accusation might stick. You certainly can, however, blame the MEC for failing to understand the importance of addressing this publicly. |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 657527)
We agree on the first part.
As for the part in bold, your statement is equally unproven. With due respect, your word is often valid, but it is only your word. Your claim that something unholy is occurring is your conclusion, based on a second party's assessment, of yet a third party's actions. That makes it fourth-hand to me. You do prove one point, however, and that is that the MEC, by doing such a poor job of presenting their opinion, or showing the nature of their work, is leaving it wide open to being painted with whatever brush anyone else choses. I'm equally suspicious of the opposition, and their motives. I think they're riding the "scope" train for rather dubious goals. But you can't fault them for trying whatever accusation might stick. You certainly can, however, blame the MEC for failing to understand the importance of addressing this publicly. I understand that you see this as fourth hand info and that is fine. We have three individuals that are very close to the action that have all stated in one fashion or another than they can no longer sit on their hands. You have a 777CA running for CA rep in 44, an ER FO who works with the DPN, and a vocal 88 CA that has finally decided he can take no more. Who these people are will come out very shortly. |
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