I agree with Bucking's perspective.

I'm sorry 80, I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. The basic questions I see are: Did the agreement between Delta Management and the Pinnacle pilots violate the Delta Pilot Working Agreement? If so, what section specifically does it violate? Does it violate the RLA? I don't see how it violates either one. If some is going to explain it to me please remember simple words, I was a history major...:)....and that was quite awhile ago!

I am by no means endorsing what happened nor am I happy about it. I just don't see what recourse we have...

Denny

Actually, you did. The contract is being followed.

i.e. a waiver was granted...

No. My big beef is that ALPA has changed policy to redefine Delta flying as only the flying contained within Delta's scope agreement. Further, our former Chairman took the position that everything in our scope section should not really be considered "scope." (so who knows what is protected under this new definition? How about the AF JV flying we aren't actually able to fix until March 2015?) Thus other airlines are authorized by ALPA to make Deals with Delta management without the knowledge or consent of the Delta pilots for anything THEY deem is not "Delta Flying."The Pinnacle Bridge agreement is ill considered for a number of other reasons. First, it creates a marketplace where airlines can come in and bid for Delta's permitted flying. Pinnacle bought itself a slice with concessions. Secondly, the Bridge Agreement provisions are ill considered and strategically not aligned with the expressed goals of our union as outlined in the Administrative Manual as adopted by our Board of Directors.

Lets start with instructions, as outlined in our Administrative Manual which reflects the democratic guidance of our union.Notice that we Delta pilots did just that in our contract
Then the Pinnacle pilots came along and put themselves at the front of the line. It is not what the Delta pilots wanted or else we would have worded our contract like this ... Pinnacle changed our contract by adding to it.So Pinnacle took our offer of help to ALPA members who have lost their jobs and put their senior Captains first. That's just bad policy.

But more importantly, all this was done so our flying could be sold. Just as it was necessary to get Compass out of our MEC before they could be sold, ALPA wants to divide Delta flying and deal in the part we are not actively flying.

Given that those contracts extend past our amendable date, it acts as a check valve. We now have lost jobs we will probably not get back.

Further, some Pinnacle insiders are already pretty excited about Delta's contract 2015. We are not yet studying our opener, but now that the market is open others are sure talking about theirs.

Bar,

Great post...as per usual.

Leine,

I understand your point. But here's my problem. I think (key word: "think") DALPA's scope giveaway is designed to meet the "spirit" (but not the "word") of the contractual scope terms. So DALPA took the magnanimous position of saying okay...

Where has the reverse happened? When has Delta honored the "spirit" of the contract as opposed to the written word? Did they do that with the Frontier/Republic scope issue? How about with the interpretation of the number of permitted 70+ seat RJ's?

Seriously.

My impression, based on many years at Delta, is management will hide behind contractual language when it's in their interest, and say "Gee fellas...this is what the contract means to us..." when it's convenient.

This was a (wasted) opportunity to hold managements feet to the fire and, from my perspective, it was squandered (again).

What's the point of having a contract if it's not going to be followed, and what's the point of paying dues to an organization to negotiate and uphold a contract if they are going to (continually) turn the other cheek?

I don't speak legalese that well, nor do I know our contract inside and out. Bar has a much better grasp and knowledge of these things.

What I do know is that it sets a very dangerous precedent and Moak and Wychor should have been shut down and at the very least slapped on the wrist.

You can't move on until you agree there's a problem. Another analogy, "hey babe, yeah, I was sleeping around, but I've moved on..." Ain't going to cut it. Some don't see a problem with more large RJs or ALV+15. So next contract what's to stop more large RJs and elimination of ALV+15 for all because in international categories blah blah blah?

Something else sometimes happens in an argument. You learn youre wrong. It's not a bad thing. I'd love to be like "HEY DALPA IS SCREWING US ON [name it]!" And ACL says "Actually, this is why, this is why it's good for you, its a good thing." To which the response should be "oh, I stand corrected." I see 80 admit more than anyone when he's wrong. And trust me, I'd rather be wrong about ALPA then right. I just worry I'm not.

Also, here's the thing about a healthy discourse. I personally don't care if a pilot is DAL M88, 737, 767, senior, junior, ALPA lover, ALPA hater, hater in general, etc. I enjoy talking to anyone in person. I'd enjoy talking to Slow and Alfa although I may ask more questions than bow up and argue. I'm not that way, I like to get people to talk, I learn. But here on this forum is where we debate ideas and hope gunship sneaks a good pic of kate upton. It's almost a good thing names and rank and stuff is hidden. I think it's unique and good vs the dalpa forums if done correctly.

I'm a good FO. I can get along with anyone but I'm not sure everyone would get a long with me. Take Ferd for instance, look at some of the posts he's directed my way:

http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/19...9fde0a7ec1.jpg

It hurts on the inside because some of its true. And to come from an F-15 Tomcat pilot that flew at Ft Monroe, that hurts even more.

I don't know, but what is LM doing over at national?

Watching his transformation has been painfull. Now he is progressed to half truths....transformation complete.

Denny,

Here is ALPA's Counsel, Mr. Bill Roberts describing "Delta Flying" in his deposition:Mr. Robert's is pretty clear then that he believes flying for Delta is Delta flying and is only permitted under the Delta pilot working agreement. There is no discussion of Comair (in this case) being able to subcontract within Delta's contract, as ALPA would not authorize ASA or Comair to do so back then.

Now, despite claims to the contrary, Pinnacle has an agreement which restricts Delta flying. Pinnacle's agreement literally supercedes ours by duration.

Ironically, my guess is Wychor studied and learned from JC Lawson, Bob Arnold and the early (pre litigation) RJDC playbook and used his position to actually pull off what JC Lawson and Bob Arnold were trying to accomplish; scope which bound Delta Air Lines. Be interesting to hear Duane Woerth's opinion on the change.