Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-04-2013, 05:23 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by tsquare
So wouldn't that tell you that there is a lot more to this negotiation thingy than just demanding stuff and folding our arms?
Originally Posted by tsquare
Just asking, because if that is all there is to it, then the doughnut holes are right.
Originally Posted by tsquare
Let's fire ALPA,
Originally Posted by tsquare
demand what we "deserve" and wait a couple of weeks to sign the first big check.
Originally Posted by tsquare
It all must be so simple... I wonder why ALPA can't deliver on everybody's nirvana.
07-04-2013, 05:46 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
You do know that hundreds of pilots have upgraded to Captain already right? Just because it's not you it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. And the first 717 is not even on the property yet. When you saw that 737-900's were replacing 757's (clearly stated in the TA analysis) what did you expect to happen to 7ER staffing? Did you really think they would keep the same number of pilots while reducing the aircraft count? By the way I am a 7ER captain and my category is shrinking away, just like I thought it would when everyone said openly and repeatedly that they were retiring 757's. In over two decades of flying I have never seen a time when they cut back on a specific type of aircraft and didn't reduce the staffing on that aircraft. Is that something you are used to seeing?
In fact, you had a completely accurate picture, it is just you chose to think it meant something else. It was clearly stated that the 717's would be on the property in September and that is two months away. It was clearly stated that this transition was a three year process that hasn't even begun yet. I am not sure what you expected but what is happening is exactly what you were told.
In fact, you had a completely accurate picture, it is just you chose to think it meant something else. It was clearly stated that the 717's would be on the property in September and that is two months away. It was clearly stated that this transition was a three year process that hasn't even begun yet. I am not sure what you expected but what is happening is exactly what you were told.
Originally Posted by Jack Bauer
From the Delta MEC:
Some will argue these increases are not enough and that we should hold out for more, but this ignores the time-value of consistent year-over-year increases. Southwest pilots, for example, are where they are today because they work for a consistently profitable company and have received a series of modest pay increases.
In terms of scope, we were able to achieve important improvements, from the smallest jets through international joint venture protections. Scope is the most complex section of the contract. At its core, it is about who flies Delta’s passengers and ultimately, about Delta pilot jobs.
Importantly, we will have a block hour ratio, which establishes a minimum amount of mainline flying relative to DCI flying and a cap on the total number of 50 to 76 seat DCI aircraft. Delta will be permitted accelerated access to 76-seat jets, but this access can only occur if Delta first acquires small narrow-body jets flown by Delta mainline pilots and if there is a significant reduction in the number of 50-seat aircraft. Without the acquisition of these new mainline aircraft, Delta will be capped at the current level for 70/76-seat jets. Ultimately, under this agreement, Delta’s access to 76-seat jets will be capped at 32 less than what is allowed in the current PWA. Additionally, Delta will no longer be permitted to convert 70-seat jets to 76-seat jets going forward, regardless of the size of the mainline fleet.
Delta management decides which aircraft it operates, but we have every reason to believe that Delta will soon announce the purchase of aircraft contingent on the ratification of this agreement. This will represent a major opportunity for many of our pilots to upgrade from the right seat to the left seat and will also create a need for additional hiring for the right seat. While the details are complex and best left for a dedicated Negotiators’ Notepad, let me summarize by saying that if Delta executes its plan for the small narrow-body jet flying, the result will be a major shift of block hours to Delta mainline. The share of mainline domestic flying will increase by 21 percent and the ratio of mainline domestic to DCI flying will increase by 57 percent over the life of this agreement.
We achieved a number of improvements in the scheduling arena, and one of the most significant is in the area of reserve flying. The reserve guarantee will be established as two hours below the average line value (ALV) with a floor of 72 and a ceiling of 80. This improvement alone will result in a monthly pay increase for reserves of between 2.9 - 14.3 percent depending on the monthly ALV, before the pay table increases are applied. Combined with the other improvements to reserve, it is my view that when viewed in aggregate, we will have the best reserve system in the industry.
The complicated and often punitive 75 percent sick leave bank has been eliminated. All sick leave up to a pilot’s yearly accrued maximum will be paid at 100 percent, and for pilots with over 20 years of service, the sick leave accrual will increase from 240 to 270 hours per year.
The agreement also includes an early retirement program similar in scope to the program offered to other Delta employees earlier this year, and this program will also be the subject of a standalone communication.
There are many other improvements in the tentative agreement such as “vacation any,” average daily guarantee (ADG), elimination of the sick leave monitoring program and others too numerous to cover here. In addition to the communications I’ve already discussed, the MEC administration and the Negotiating Committee will begin a series of system-wide road shows commencing after the Memorial Day weekend. We will also produce a streaming video for those unable to make it to a road show. In short, we will do everything in our power to provide you with all the information you need to cast an informed vote once the ratification window opens next month.
In mediation, the average time spent to reach an agreement is 29 months. Our time in mediation could be more; it could be less. But if we take the average, that means we might not reach an agreement until the fall of 2015, just months ahead of the amendable date of the recently achieved tentative agreement. Put another way, we’ll be deep into negotiations for ourfollow-on agreement (Contract 2015) even before we might have reached an agreement on Contract 2012.
In a recent Chairman’s Letter to you, I wrote somewhat cryptically about fleeting opportunities, and earlier in this letter, I wrote about Delta’s fleet plan. The value the Delta pilots receive in conjunction with this TA is a result of Delta’s desire to execute its business plan in a timely fashion. It is in large part due to this leverage that we were able to seize the opportunity to reach this agreement over seven months ahead of the amendable date. Delta can execute a portion of its fleet plan without an agreement with ALPA, but this is a rare opportunity to accelerate and enhance that plan to the benefit of both Delta and the Delta pilots.
Finally, I would like to thank the MEC Negotiating Committee and their expanded team for the incredible work they have done over the past 18 months and in particular, during the last two months. The Delta pilots have once again set the bar for pattern bargaining, and shattered the paradigm of drawn-out negotiations. Importantly, if this agreement is ratified, we don’t intend to stop there. Your MEC will continue to make incremental but significant improvements at every opportunity, just as we have for the past several years.
The Delta MEC Negotiating Committee wholeheartedly endorses this agreement, and the Delta MEC has approved and endorsed this agreement. It is my recommendation that when the time comes to cast your vote, you vote to ratify the agreement.
Some will argue these increases are not enough and that we should hold out for more, but this ignores the time-value of consistent year-over-year increases. Southwest pilots, for example, are where they are today because they work for a consistently profitable company and have received a series of modest pay increases.
In terms of scope, we were able to achieve important improvements, from the smallest jets through international joint venture protections. Scope is the most complex section of the contract. At its core, it is about who flies Delta’s passengers and ultimately, about Delta pilot jobs.
Importantly, we will have a block hour ratio, which establishes a minimum amount of mainline flying relative to DCI flying and a cap on the total number of 50 to 76 seat DCI aircraft. Delta will be permitted accelerated access to 76-seat jets, but this access can only occur if Delta first acquires small narrow-body jets flown by Delta mainline pilots and if there is a significant reduction in the number of 50-seat aircraft. Without the acquisition of these new mainline aircraft, Delta will be capped at the current level for 70/76-seat jets. Ultimately, under this agreement, Delta’s access to 76-seat jets will be capped at 32 less than what is allowed in the current PWA. Additionally, Delta will no longer be permitted to convert 70-seat jets to 76-seat jets going forward, regardless of the size of the mainline fleet.
Delta management decides which aircraft it operates, but we have every reason to believe that Delta will soon announce the purchase of aircraft contingent on the ratification of this agreement. This will represent a major opportunity for many of our pilots to upgrade from the right seat to the left seat and will also create a need for additional hiring for the right seat. While the details are complex and best left for a dedicated Negotiators’ Notepad, let me summarize by saying that if Delta executes its plan for the small narrow-body jet flying, the result will be a major shift of block hours to Delta mainline. The share of mainline domestic flying will increase by 21 percent and the ratio of mainline domestic to DCI flying will increase by 57 percent over the life of this agreement.
We achieved a number of improvements in the scheduling arena, and one of the most significant is in the area of reserve flying. The reserve guarantee will be established as two hours below the average line value (ALV) with a floor of 72 and a ceiling of 80. This improvement alone will result in a monthly pay increase for reserves of between 2.9 - 14.3 percent depending on the monthly ALV, before the pay table increases are applied. Combined with the other improvements to reserve, it is my view that when viewed in aggregate, we will have the best reserve system in the industry.
The complicated and often punitive 75 percent sick leave bank has been eliminated. All sick leave up to a pilot’s yearly accrued maximum will be paid at 100 percent, and for pilots with over 20 years of service, the sick leave accrual will increase from 240 to 270 hours per year.
The agreement also includes an early retirement program similar in scope to the program offered to other Delta employees earlier this year, and this program will also be the subject of a standalone communication.
There are many other improvements in the tentative agreement such as “vacation any,” average daily guarantee (ADG), elimination of the sick leave monitoring program and others too numerous to cover here. In addition to the communications I’ve already discussed, the MEC administration and the Negotiating Committee will begin a series of system-wide road shows commencing after the Memorial Day weekend. We will also produce a streaming video for those unable to make it to a road show. In short, we will do everything in our power to provide you with all the information you need to cast an informed vote once the ratification window opens next month.
In mediation, the average time spent to reach an agreement is 29 months. Our time in mediation could be more; it could be less. But if we take the average, that means we might not reach an agreement until the fall of 2015, just months ahead of the amendable date of the recently achieved tentative agreement. Put another way, we’ll be deep into negotiations for ourfollow-on agreement (Contract 2015) even before we might have reached an agreement on Contract 2012.
In a recent Chairman’s Letter to you, I wrote somewhat cryptically about fleeting opportunities, and earlier in this letter, I wrote about Delta’s fleet plan. The value the Delta pilots receive in conjunction with this TA is a result of Delta’s desire to execute its business plan in a timely fashion. It is in large part due to this leverage that we were able to seize the opportunity to reach this agreement over seven months ahead of the amendable date. Delta can execute a portion of its fleet plan without an agreement with ALPA, but this is a rare opportunity to accelerate and enhance that plan to the benefit of both Delta and the Delta pilots.
Finally, I would like to thank the MEC Negotiating Committee and their expanded team for the incredible work they have done over the past 18 months and in particular, during the last two months. The Delta pilots have once again set the bar for pattern bargaining, and shattered the paradigm of drawn-out negotiations. Importantly, if this agreement is ratified, we don’t intend to stop there. Your MEC will continue to make incremental but significant improvements at every opportunity, just as we have for the past several years.
The Delta MEC Negotiating Committee wholeheartedly endorses this agreement, and the Delta MEC has approved and endorsed this agreement. It is my recommendation that when the time comes to cast your vote, you vote to ratify the agreement.
07-04-2013, 05:55 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 5-9 block, kill removing
Posts: 385
I've been feeling a bit duped by the thinly veiled spin of Sep 12 hiring if we voted he TA in.
Carl has clearly shown the cause of that feeling. I didn't "misinterpret" anything, I was fibbed to.
Carl has clearly shown the cause of that feeling. I didn't "misinterpret" anything, I was fibbed to.
07-04-2013, 05:58 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by tsquare
non sequitur. Besides, you are dodging the question. But if that is supposed to mean that we tell dALPA to do just what you infer... stand with arms folded until we get a "better deal" count me out. That is not a strategy, it is a purely emotional response which offers zero return and zero in my wallet for an undetermined period of time. Show me a real return, and I will listen. Other than that.....
I know your avatar says you "no longer care" and you regularly tout that "I already have my captain seat", but it's utterly hypocritical for you to denigrate an actual fight for betterment. Do you have any idea how selfish and scared you sound?
Carl
07-04-2013, 06:11 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,008
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
You're right buzz, but I can't let this go when Bucking Bar does this. For some reason, every year or so, Bucking Bar brings up his hurt feelings about our SLI and especially the pull and plug. And it's brought up completely out of the blue. He has a right to do it, but I wish he wouldn't. I have a right to respond, but I wish I didn't have to.
Carl
Carl
07-04-2013, 06:13 PM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
...........
07-04-2013, 06:13 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,165
LL: Hi I'm LeineLodge and I'm a tool on APC on the 4th of July
All: Hi LeineLodge
Now that I got that out of the way, here are the good things that I have gotten out of C2012:
- I bid RSV almost every month now that the guarantee is 72-80, instead of the "old" 70. Other guys are doing this too. I was told the avg would be around 75.5 and this is probably going to be pretty accurate. Translation: more $ in my pocket, more REG lines for guys junior to me (not even going into the bucket discussion that's been beaten to a pulp)
- ADG - again as a RSV pilot, this is a good deal. Especially on a GS. I've done multiple GS trips in the past few months that would have only been 4:00 (one leg out, short overnight, one leg back) but now are worth 9:00. More $ in my pocket
- Slightly better training/vacation pay. I'm not wowed by it, but it is more $ in my pocket. I'm about as junior as they get and it translates to over $500 extra per year. That's 2 weeks of vacation, 2 days of CQ, and the lowest pay rate (DC9) I can be on at 6 years longevity. Nearly everyone else is getting more out of these little items
- Sick Leave - No more 70%. I actually ran into this in the spring, and burned deep enough into my sick bank that I WOULD have hit the 70% pay. Very nice to be rid of that. While I'm on the topic, I don't really give a hoot if the CPO calls me about my sick call. I don't fly when I'm sick, and I don't call in sick when I'm not. If they want to verify something that's fine. I've got nothing to hide. I WILL document the event for ALPA to track these things, and recommend everyone else do the same.
Just these few items have significantly bumped my pay. End of June paystub was MUCH higher than last June and I'm 3 pay steps down from where I was last year. Everyone's results vary, but if you are on reserve there is a very good chance that you are doing better than you were last year. Can't speak much to being a REG pilot.
Retirement goes to 15% on Jan 1st which is good. Higher would be better, but I'd be fine leaving it there and working on pay (which would result in more retirement $) in the future.
That's the good stuff. Next post will have my thoughts on the "bad"
All: Hi LeineLodge
Now that I got that out of the way, here are the good things that I have gotten out of C2012:
- I bid RSV almost every month now that the guarantee is 72-80, instead of the "old" 70. Other guys are doing this too. I was told the avg would be around 75.5 and this is probably going to be pretty accurate. Translation: more $ in my pocket, more REG lines for guys junior to me (not even going into the bucket discussion that's been beaten to a pulp)
- ADG - again as a RSV pilot, this is a good deal. Especially on a GS. I've done multiple GS trips in the past few months that would have only been 4:00 (one leg out, short overnight, one leg back) but now are worth 9:00. More $ in my pocket
- Slightly better training/vacation pay. I'm not wowed by it, but it is more $ in my pocket. I'm about as junior as they get and it translates to over $500 extra per year. That's 2 weeks of vacation, 2 days of CQ, and the lowest pay rate (DC9) I can be on at 6 years longevity. Nearly everyone else is getting more out of these little items
- Sick Leave - No more 70%. I actually ran into this in the spring, and burned deep enough into my sick bank that I WOULD have hit the 70% pay. Very nice to be rid of that. While I'm on the topic, I don't really give a hoot if the CPO calls me about my sick call. I don't fly when I'm sick, and I don't call in sick when I'm not. If they want to verify something that's fine. I've got nothing to hide. I WILL document the event for ALPA to track these things, and recommend everyone else do the same.
Just these few items have significantly bumped my pay. End of June paystub was MUCH higher than last June and I'm 3 pay steps down from where I was last year. Everyone's results vary, but if you are on reserve there is a very good chance that you are doing better than you were last year. Can't speak much to being a REG pilot.
Retirement goes to 15% on Jan 1st which is good. Higher would be better, but I'd be fine leaving it there and working on pay (which would result in more retirement $) in the future.
That's the good stuff. Next post will have my thoughts on the "bad"
07-04-2013, 06:19 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Notice any correlation with displacement bids?
Carl
07-04-2013, 06:50 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,008
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
No.
Carl
Carl
07-04-2013, 06:56 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,165
....the "bad stuff":
- We're not hiring. I sat through the roadshows, spoke to the negotiators, and to the guys that were "in the room." I spoke to my reps. I genuinely believe that they all thought we would be hiring by now. It is delayed a little longer than I would like to see, but it is coming; probably sooner than later. My take is the company is pushing so hard to show a massive profit for the investors, that they have pushed off as many non-essential costs to the 11th hour. It might turn out to bite them in the form of crew shortages. We will see.
- The displacement shuffle continues. This is similar to the first point. Once the airplanes start showing up this will hopefully ease some of the angst that many guys are feeling with the lack of progress.
One thing I know for certain. I was never lied to. The "they lied to us" theme is just the latest tactic from Carl's crowd to try and gain support, which only divides us further. I read the contract. Yes, actually read it, not relied on a slideshow, and made my decision. It wasn't perfect, but it was certainly an improvement.
The repeated suggestion to "talk to your reps" or "volunteer" is simply asking guys to engage in the real world, with the way things really are. If my main source of information was this thread, I might think the sky was falling too. It is vitally important, especially for us junior guys that have awhile to go, to step away from the keyboard and have some real world contact with our union.
I filled out a card for Carl's group several years ago because their talking points sounded good. As I've dug a little deeper, I've come to realize that ALPA is not the root of all evil (nor is it perfect.) Progress is slow, but steady. Just take a look at the massive legislative effort that took place last month on Capitol Hill. It would be years before a new union is in a place to mount such an effort - not that it sounds like Carl thinks we need to. Much better to let our demands be known then head down to the bank to cash our big checks...
Back to my drink and what's left of the 4th.
Happy and Proud to be American, and a Delta Pilot!
LeineLodge
- We're not hiring. I sat through the roadshows, spoke to the negotiators, and to the guys that were "in the room." I spoke to my reps. I genuinely believe that they all thought we would be hiring by now. It is delayed a little longer than I would like to see, but it is coming; probably sooner than later. My take is the company is pushing so hard to show a massive profit for the investors, that they have pushed off as many non-essential costs to the 11th hour. It might turn out to bite them in the form of crew shortages. We will see.
- The displacement shuffle continues. This is similar to the first point. Once the airplanes start showing up this will hopefully ease some of the angst that many guys are feeling with the lack of progress.
One thing I know for certain. I was never lied to. The "they lied to us" theme is just the latest tactic from Carl's crowd to try and gain support, which only divides us further. I read the contract. Yes, actually read it, not relied on a slideshow, and made my decision. It wasn't perfect, but it was certainly an improvement.
The repeated suggestion to "talk to your reps" or "volunteer" is simply asking guys to engage in the real world, with the way things really are. If my main source of information was this thread, I might think the sky was falling too. It is vitally important, especially for us junior guys that have awhile to go, to step away from the keyboard and have some real world contact with our union.
I filled out a card for Carl's group several years ago because their talking points sounded good. As I've dug a little deeper, I've come to realize that ALPA is not the root of all evil (nor is it perfect.) Progress is slow, but steady. Just take a look at the massive legislative effort that took place last month on Capitol Hill. It would be years before a new union is in a place to mount such an effort - not that it sounds like Carl thinks we need to. Much better to let our demands be known then head down to the bank to cash our big checks...
Back to my drink and what's left of the 4th.
Happy and Proud to be American, and a Delta Pilot!
LeineLodge
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