That was an awesome video....

I concur, this data point has been my experience also. I'm getting a wee bit tired about hearing how 80 turns it all off and just challenges The Man if they say anything, too... I like the trend, and it's nice to hear some folks have this perception, but it is absolutely NOT the perception I've developed or experienced.

I have NEVER seen a single CA fly the plane with the FD off. I have NEVER seen a single Delta pilot (FO or Capt) fly a visual with no FD, or without an ILS or RNAV in and fully functioning as the "backup" to the visual. Every example I have ever heard briefed or seen at Delta has been, "We're going to fly the visual 28 backed up with the ILS..." and a full brief of the ILS and a full approach with it in the background.

While going through training, I repeatedly asked for pitch and power settings, expected nose high for climbout, rough fuel flows or RPMs for single engine or coming down the precision or NP path--you know, how to fly the plane. I was told every single time, "just keep the thing on the thing, follow the FD, it's right there."

Even more, I have never seen a CA turn off the autopilot on an approach or visual until approx base leg. I can't recall anyone turning it off until dogleg, though someone might have on base leg once or twice.

I have been repeatedly told to fly in VNAV path so alt restrictions are honored and made, and to optimize fuel. I have been repeatedly given ASAP adventures, or Fleet news, or various bulletins to the gist of, "the pilots are messing it up, you need to keep the autopilot on and in VNAV until base leg". I got at least two bulletins just this year saying exactly that for the RNAV Visuals at Atlanta!--stop turning off the AP, you're not following the 100% exact groundtrack and expected VNAV flap speeds so we're not getting 100% of the fuel and traffic-stuffing returns we expected out of these RNAVVs!

I have 15 articles in my binder here on VNAV Path, flying VNAV visuals automated, and how to work the automation in various scenarios when it doesn't do what we expect or kicks off... but I have ZERO articles from Delta talking about how to pitch/power it, how to see a 3 degree wire, how to do S turns on final at SFO or change RWY last minute completely visually without exceeding stable approach, or how great it is to use the RWY trick with a gP and just plug that in for a visual and forget about the published approach as a backup. Zero.

Lately even the LAVS optional approach page has been almost hidden in the vol1 to the point where you follow the chart in there and the answer for every approach is IAN/APP.

I have seen the VOR 13 JFK and expressway visual and the 19s at LAS constantly flown in VNAV autopilot until final.

While it may be 80's experience that hand-flying with no automation is encouraged here, I don't get that impression at all. For example: the week after we got the hand fly bulletin/emphasis, I was rejected on my plan to fly an empty plane with no FD on a 0030 empty ferry flight, for the climb-out. When I turned off the FD on departure above 18k, there was a LOT of nervousness from the other seat. After a VOR passage/turn I got a call from ATC when 1/2 mile off the course correcting, they couldn't take it either. I was encouraged several times to turn the stuff back on once at altitude... if I can't practice this stuff at 0200 in an empty plane out west, WHEN can I?

I flew over 3000 hours of fighters and probably have less than 20 hours total of autopilot use in the mil, and all of it crossing the pond. In 29 years military I never once turned an autopilot on for an approach, nor did I ever have auto-throttles. Nor a FD--just HSD and raw data. This is how I wanted to fly approaches here if I ever thought the automation was degrading my SA on an approach, and that idea was crushed from me during training. I have a LOT of good-quality hand-flying experience, and I'll tell you this: if I was forced right now to hand fly an approach with no GP reference or flight directors up, it wouldn't be easy; and I know that many of the guys I fly with would be head's down in the box if given a RWY change at 5 miles. When I start seeing Captains turn off a FD, and stop forcing use of APP vs. LAVs when on a visual, I'll start thinking about turning off the FD myself.

I'm all for good practice hand-flying, but I'm smelling a holier-than-thou attitude from some folks with the implication we're miss-perceiving an automation bias/push and must just be lazy... well, it's starting to irk me. I may press to test a bit more now, based on what some of you like 80 have written, but I'm not seeing it.

Come ride J/S on the DC-9. You will see it all the time. Real men (and women) flying the real way. In an ideal world every pilot would fly the DC-9 for a month every few years to maintain proficiency. --BV

Are you kidding me??? There will be a whole lotta incidents if that happened..:eek: Lets start out by using the DC9 sim, every few years for proficiency.

TEN

Unfortunately, many pilots, including me, do not want to be near an airplane or airport on their days off. I have not flown a non airline aircraft for over 20 years.

TEN

In the early 75-76 days a lot of guys encouraged hand flying, [The 75 being one trick bird.] They were pounded into the ground for their efforts. Did it anyway. I do miss the 75......sniff. Especially the FLL-PBI non stops. I even found a mid flight reporting point.....

Watched some USAir (AW) 321 guys do a visual from JS the other day with everything turned off, and realized it's the first time I've seen that with them. Pretty common to see in the SWA jumpseat, but I realized I'd never seen it in a Delta cockpit.

Anyways, lots of good info and experience sharing here on a topic that is absolutely key for good flying safety and culture--I like to see it!

So the NTSB is saying that the lowest speed (3 seconds prior to impact) was 103 knots. What would a 777 EFIS screen speed tape look like in that instance? (ie, 34 knots below Vref). Is it yellow? Red? Flashing red?

That's a lot of knots to be slow.

If I remember, years ago a major US carrier was going to codeshare with a Korean carrier (maybe Korean Air?) and their pilots did some sort of "line checks" to see what kind of operation it was. I remember reading the report, a lot of "not speaking up" and stuff along those lines. Anyone else remember that report?

Man it just keeps getting worse. No runway change and a 17 mile final. How do you dork that up?

Above 500' they'd get the trim inhibits (can't trim to a lower airspeed), above 100' feet they'd get auto-throttle wake up with SPD or THR REF to min maneuver IF the AT ARM switches were ARMED. The AS tape would turn amber, then red like you said. And let's not forget the AIRSPEED LOW EICAS :p