Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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- - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1477710)

It doesn't matter how you "see it" shiznit. The written word is what matters. The written word says "6 months prior to the amendable date of our PWA." It says nothing about when we enter Section 6 negotiations. You made a mistake. It happens.
Carl

Let's solve this disagreement now. It does NOT say 6 months prior to the amendable date of our PWA. Here is the language.

Quote:

Section 28

A. Effective Date and Duration

Except as expressly provided otherwise, this agreement will become effective on July 1, 2012, will continue in full force and effect through December 31, 2015, and will renew itself without change through each succeeding December 31st, unless written notice of intended change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title I, of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by either party here to at least 60 days but no more than 270 days prior to December 31, 2015 or December 31st in any year thereafter. In the absence of an agreement by March 31, 2016, the parties agree to jointly petition the National Mediation Board for mediation services.

270 days prior to Dec 31, 2015 is what date?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1477717)

Let's solve this disagreement now. It does NOT say 6 months prior to the amendable date of our PWA. Here is the language.

270 days prior to Dec 31, 2015 is what date?

We're not talking about Section 28 of our PWA bud. We're talking about the DPA constitution and what it says about what constitutes a special circumstance triggering a 0.5% dues increase.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitimefurl (Post 1477404)

My card expired. I put one in. I did it in a moment of weakness by which I mean the wrong side of a long flight home with a migraine and some real concern over my flight home being made. I really had never looked at a policy manual or anything else until this all started. The more I read on here about policies and the more I read on the DPA site I started to realize that starting from scratch with a bad plan is um er a bad plan. I figured if I asked the internet someone would answer. Instead I'm an 'ALPA guy' because I asked how DPA could be better when they haven't invented better yet. Way to go APC. Way to go.

Up to now, I have never considered putting a card into DPA. I was bred on ALPA, but in this last year and C2012, I am ready for a change. My DPA card is in.

-I dont mind a loud mouth, angry, passionate, hate the company leader like TC. Sometimes you need to have extra venom to strike at the company. I understand DALPA's philosophy:Little increases in pay eventually yield riches but I am getting a little confused with the club mentality, secrecy and bend over backward approach.

My concerns with DPA were mostly on funding, aeromedical, disability products and legal. After researching this, we would have the same caliber of products as we do with ALPA.

My thought is that DPA will represent us, while DALPA is an arm for a very big profit hungry corporation. ALPA needs to be fed by its arms to survive. First priority is for ALPA to survive and flourish. Second priority is to make us happy. I think DPA would have our best interest as First priority.

This thought process has taken over my brain due to what I have been witnessing. Im willing to give it a try;)

TEN

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1477705)

Don't forget to mention that at the end of those clearly defined special circumstances, dues snap back down, then steadily decrease to 1%. Don't believe that is the case with ALPA. Not that the percentage of dues paid is the driving factor on either side.

Copy. I see ALPA dues going down, regardless of the status of negotiations. I also got a nice dues refund check this year.

Looking at the history of our airlines, I don't see long enough gaps between "special circumstances", in this case 3 years, to get DPA dues down to 1%. Bankruptcies, mergers, section six, etc. How likely is it we'd ever see the "teaser" rate of 1%, when evaluated against a historical perspective?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1477705)

I do. ALPA national will be keeping all dues dollars that Delta pilots have paid in to ALPA for both the Delta pilots Major Contingency Fund (MCF) and the dues dollars specifically budgeted for Delta pilots. One of the negatives about starting an independent union is ALPA keeping all your money. I'm quite confident that we'll be financially sound very quickly however for the reasons you've stated above.

Notwithstanding your "Delta pilots Major Contingency Fund" comment (since there is no such thing), I believe other ALPA pilots have paid into the ALPA MCF. Is that your understanding? I've always heard that when DAL and NWA pilots have spent MCF money it's been put there by pilots from UAL and other ALPA carriers, too - including regionals. The way I remember it, when ALPA pilots were paying dues over 2% to build up the MCF, it was all ALPA groups, including Comair, Mesaba, etc. Is that correct?

Am I correct in concluding that being represented by DPA means we'll have no "war chest" or cushion to handle major contingencies? With no MCF and no risk management arrangement - like Kitty Hawk - I see DPA-represented pilots vulnerable to the inevitable lawsuits from within and without, as well as unpredictable events.

Do we have to make ourselves vulnerable for the 3-? years it would take to build up a war chest, and that's if section six negotiations don't prevent us from saving any money?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1477705)

Notwithstanding your "DPA cheerleaders" comment, please see above.

I used a term I have read here, sometimes by you, to describe someone staunchly advocating a position. Is it your view that ALPA has "cheerleaders" , but DPA has "patriots"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1477728)

We're not talking about Section 28 of our PWA bud. We're talking about the DPA constitution and what it says about what constitutes a special circumstance triggering a 0.5% dues increase.

Carl

Ok. Thanks for the correction. So what's this then?

Quote:

3. The dues rate shall be 1.75% upon initial certification by the National Mediation Board. On January 1st of the second full fiscal year following initial certification, the dues rate shall drop annually by 0.25% every year until reaching a minimum dues rate of 1%. Special Circumstance Exception: Six (6) months prior to the amendable date of the Pilot Working Agreement, or upon early opening of negotiations if greater than six (6) months prior to the amendable date, or upon notification of a possible bankruptcy or merger initiated by the Company, the dues rate will temporarily increase by 0.5% until the new contract is ratified, or bankruptcy proceedings or merger integration is complete. Upon completion, all expenses for the Special Circumstance will be fully accounted for and any remaining funds and any accrued interest from the 0.5% temporary increase will be refunded to the membership on a pro rata basis.

I came in to the conversation a little late, and haven't made it back the last few pages. Are we debating that the dues increase can't happen until 6 months prior? Because I see this:

Quote:

or upon early opening of negotiations if greater than six (6) months prior to the amendable date, or upon notification of a possible bankruptcy or merger initiated by the Company, the dues rate will temporarily increase by 0.5% until the new contract is ratified

So how will dues not go up 0.5% if Sec 6 begins in April 2015?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeineLodge (Post 1477712)

This isn't spin Carl? You want to argue facts, but then you toss out your 'opinion' as if it were fact.

Fair enough. That is my opinion on exactly what's going on now. I do that for a reason. I do it knowing that the "ALPA no matter what" folks will seize on a comment like that allowing them to ignore the rest of the factually based post. When people use anything to run away from facts, it tells me something worthwhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeineLodge (Post 1477712)

The fact is the company can do whatever they want with the NRT slots, including drawing them down to zero. Our leverage comes from the fact that they would like to maintain the codeshares they currently have in place. Your negotiators are attempting to capture more of the Pacific flying, which is currently a vulnerability.

Really? We have nothing in our PWA requiring the company to operate flights into and out of NRT? They can operate zero flights into and out of NRT?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeineLodge (Post 1477712)

Here's a question. How do you think the DPA would handle the NRT slot issue with mgmt? Would they have told Delta to pound sand? What reasonable gains can your organization provide me in this regard?

I would hope DPA would tell the company to abide by the exact language of the contract. If they can't/won't operate the minimum number of NRT slots, then end the JV. No more aiding in the outsourcing of our own jobs. No more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeineLodge (Post 1477712)

I'm still waiting for the master plan. Show me how DPA is going to improve my life and I may renew my card. So far I don't see it.

The master plan has yet to be voted on by Delta pilots. So I'm guessing we'll never get your vote.

Carl

AE out tomorrow. There will be a 767 ER reduction but no displacements expected. 717, 73N and M-88 Capt positions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob (Post 1477715)

I'm curious why we're quibbling about 0.5% when no one seems to care about the FPL question. That's the one I want to know about.

That's the next bullet point on hitimefurl's laundry list. I wanted to let the " ALPA no matter what" guys completely beat this first horse to death.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1477740)

Ok. Thanks for the correction. So what's this then?

I came in to the conversation a little late, and haven't made it back the last few pages. Are we debating that the dues increase can't happen until 6 months prior? Because I see this:

So how will dues not go up 0.5% if Sec 6 begins in April 2015?

Really man I don't mean to sound harsh, but if you've come in this late, get up to speed by reading the last few pages OK?

Carl