Incorrect. The ALPA that existed when my career began was a great example. I worked under a number of ALPA contracts where there were NO concessions. Negotiations were about how much the gains would be. This concept of giving up something for every gain is a relatively new thing.

See above. The point is that you've made a patently false claim that 'ANY union would'.

Nobody gets everything they want. But that's an entirely different question than giving concessions. Bankruptcy has normalized the management dream of changing our mentalities to believe any gain must be funded by a concession.

He's not naive. You're just so weakened by what you've been told to believe, it's scary for you to hear opposing views. The rocking chair measured followership skills...not leadership skills.

Carl

Not a single person has ever said this. Your followership skills are shining brightly tsquare.

Carl

Wait a minute. Didn't the company get everything they wanted from us when we went into bankruptcy? :rolleyes:


If it wasn't everything, it had to be pretty damn close.

You're old enough to know better finis. Your memory can't be that bad. Negotiations used to be ONLY about what the gains would be. Concessions were ONLY for airlines on their last financial legs. Now concessions are part of negotiations with the industry's most healthy airline.

Sad to see some pilots' mentality slump to this level. Is there any wonder why our profession has fallen so severely. Our own members sound like managers.

Sigh.

Carl

I stand corrected. :D

Carl

That's been very tough for me to believe since I got here. I'm seeing you're 100% correct though.

But oh how they scream when they are portrayed the way they actually behave. It's a very bipolar-like mentality.

Carl

Not even close. First of all Hawaiian went through just before Delta. They did not hand over their pension like we did and came out with far better pay rates and work rules. How you might ask is that possible. They had the fortitude and grit to reject the first proposal. They deemed it onerous even with the same threats flying at them from their management as we were getting from DALPA. Namely, that what the judge will hand down will be considerably worse.

AMR, much better. The only airline that did worse was USAirways. And get this, they did worse than us because they went through BK twice! 2002 and 2004. So if you look at all the airlines that went through once, then we came out the worst.

[/QUOTE]I could live with modest additional payrate increases IF the rest of the contract was cleaned up considerably. The reverse is not true.[/QUOTE]


Really. You will except modest pay rate increases if the contract were as you say, cleaned up? First, the contract that needs to be considerably "cleaned up" was a result of our BK. The same one we did so poorly in compared to the other pilot groups.

Remember you lost pay, work rules and your pension. Considering the pension is not coming back, settling for a "modest" pay raises in exchange for getting work rules back that were extracted in BK is out right defeatist in nature.

Getting back what was lost in BK is never going to happen just with proactive engagement. We have to have some back bone and ask for it back. Management opened with 0, zero % raise in their expedited push in 2012. They set the expectation at the table. We got 4-8-3-3.

Denny,

It is also off track in the same way that nearly most guys on here are when they talk about leverage and which factors effect negotiations.

The bottom line is that when there are thousands of people lining up to do the same job as you for less pay and benefits, you have no leverage.

When your union represents the people who are undercutting you, you've got an even bigger problem.

I just launched www.getflightschedules.com. It's a very basic site that does exactly what you need. Going to be adding more features in the future, but my goal is to keep it simple.

Word......