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[QUOTE=TheManager;1520333]Not even close. First of all Hawaiian went through just before Delta. They did not hand over their pension like we did and came out with far better pay rates and work rules. How you might ask is that possible. They had the fortitude and grit to reject the first proposal. They deemed it onerous even with the same threats flying at them from their management as we were getting from DALPA. Namely, that what the judge will hand down will be considerably worse.
AMR, much better. The only airline that did worse was USAirways. And get this, they did worse than us because they went through BK twice! 2002 and 2004. So if you look at all the airlines that went through once, then we came out the worst. I think the UAL Pilots also did worse then us. Scoop |
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Originally Posted by BigGuns
(Post 1520176)
Never have I firgured out that backdoor stuff.
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Originally Posted by scambo1
(Post 1520383)
Oh man that one begs to be hit out of the park.:eek:
http://www.ausball.com.au/wp-content...7-1024x949.jpg |
Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 1520333)
Not even close. First of all Hawaiian went through just before Delta. They did not hand over their pension like we did and came out with far better pay rates and work rules. How you might ask is that possible. They had the fortitude and grit to reject the first proposal. They deemed it onerous even with the same threats flying at them from their management as we were getting from DALPA. Namely, that what the judge will hand down will be considerably worse.
AMR, much better. The only airline that did worse was USAirways. And get this, they did worse than us because they went through BK twice! 2002 and 2004. So if you look at all the airlines that went through once, then we came out the worst. [I could live with modest additional payrate increases IF the rest of the contract was cleaned up considerably. The reverse is not true.] Really. You will except modest pay rate increases if the contract were as you say, cleaned up? First, the contract that needs to be considerably "cleaned up" was a result of our BK. The same one we did so poorly in compared to the other pilot groups. Remember you lost pay, work rules and your pension. Considering the pension is not coming back, settling for a "modest" pay raises in exchange for getting work rules back that were extracted in BK is out right defeatist in nature. Getting back what was lost in BK is never going to happen just with proactive engagement. We have to have some back bone and ask for it back. Management opened with 0, zero % raise in their expedited push in 2012. They set the expectation at the table. We got 4-8-3-3. I'm not pitching constructive engagement as a future strategy. I also agree that it's going to take a backbone. I'm arguing that there are a lot of elements that make the value of a contract, and there are plenty of tax-advantageous methods we haven't explored, as some of us are stuck in circle-jerks over SW 737 Captain payrates. I'm running out of APC time to slice-and-dice this further, unfortunately. |
Originally Posted by scambo1
(Post 1520383)
Oh man that one begs to be hit out of the park.:eek:
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Well, it's that time again, when posting on APC is becoming the topic of marital scorn and strife.
I told my wife in no uncertain terms that she would be disappointed if she tries to stand between me and the L&G. In my mind. You guys going to be OK without me?;) |
Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 1520333)
Not even close. First of all Hawaiian went through just before Delta. They did not hand over their pension like we did and came out with far better pay rates and work rules. How you might ask is that possible. They had the fortitude and grit to reject the first proposal. They deemed it onerous even with the same threats flying at them from their management as we were getting from DALPA. Namely, that what the judge will hand down will be considerably worse.
AMR, much better. The only airline that did worse was USAirways. And get this, they did worse than us because they went through BK twice! 2002 and 2004. So if you look at all the airlines that went through once, then we came out the worst. I could live with modest additional payrate increases IF the rest of the contract was cleaned up considerably. The reverse is not true. Really. You will except modest pay rate increases if the contract were as you say, cleaned up? First, the contract that needs to be considerably "cleaned up" was a result of our BK. The same one we did so poorly in compared to the other pilot groups. Remember you lost pay, work rules and your pension. Considering the pension is not coming back, settling for a "modest" pay raises in exchange for getting work rules back that were extracted in BK is out right defeatist in nature. Getting back what was lost in BK is never going to happen just with proactive engagement. We have to have some back bone and ask for it back. Management opened with 0, zero % raise in their expedited push in 2012. They set the expectation at the table. We got 4-8-3-3. Carl |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 1520420)
Well, it's that time again, when posting on APC is becoming the topic of marital scorn and strife.
I told my wife in no uncertain terms that she would be disappointed if she tries to stand between me and the L&G. In my mind. You guys going to be OK without me?;) WHEREAS - Most of us think our wives look fine just as God made 'em and have no need for $500 shoes which render them functional paraplegics. WHEREAS - We have no interest in spending 5 hours looking at curtains, Christmas Trees, or sweaters. LET IT BE RESOLVED - APC should create an "Open Time Board" for our wives to post their availability for trips to the shopping mall, coffee shop or salon. Other wives can pick up available open time without restriction. Let it be further resolved that the Open Time Board will not be used as a Swap Board, oh no, definately not that. |
Originally Posted by Whidbey
(Post 1520343)
Denny,
It is also off track in the same way that nearly most guys on here are when they talk about leverage and which factors effect negotiations. The bottom line is that when there are thousands of people lining up to do the same job as you for less pay and benefits, you have no leverage. When your union represents the people who are undercutting you, you've got an even bigger problem. Our only leverage comes from the credible threat of a strike. The decision is always hard because of all the people willing to take your job. But meaningful gains are impossible in negotiations unless the other side understands you're willing to walk away forever. There is no other leverage than this. None. Carl |
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