[QUOTE=GunshipGuy;1550342]What the MIT folks do is take Form 41 data and then extrapolate it. Part of the problem here is the block hrs that are reported on Form 41 are aircraft, not pilot block hrs. This seriously skews the data. We have a significant number of flights that use three or four pilots per block hr. SWA always has two. We also have more of our list in the right seat, than the left seat; augmentation requirements. This skews the avg pilot earnings, and most of their data.

All that said, if you can go to our category list and determine the Capt/FO ratio and then use this data from RAW Form 41 data your actual comparisons start to become a lot clearer.

Many of my SWA buddies made 40K less than they did the past year. Crazy growth and movement allows for a lot of extra flying. Much of that is gone now and most are working 85 trip credit hrs a month. Remember our average pilot pay is 87 per month. Not all is equal, but if you want to start to make apples to apples comparisons of the MIT data, correct for the incorrect assumptions that are made.

[QUOTE=acl65pilot;1550465]Everything you posted is correct. That is one reason I posted the small narrow body data also since it removes the extra pilots. The other factor that pushes our costs up is a management decision to operate a very strange fleet mix causing training. Still we are well above SWA even when corrected.
My friends at SWA are seeing the same thing you mentioned. There is not enough work for them now. One CA I know is going to make 30k less this year then in 2012 and thats after dropping 20k in 2012 compared to 2011 so he is down 50 from the good years. Pilots are grabbing open time at straight rates and the 1.5 days are gone.
SWA has been in contract negotiations now since before we opened. They have made a lot of progress. I heard they have agreed on a meeting schedule so far.

I agree with some of what you have posted but some is wrong. Their are a couple of things you have to keep in mind. One the AMR bankruptcy was a strategic bankruptcy. They filed with more then 4 billion in cash on hand. Their retirement funds were all funded at better then 80 percent so they had no real concern they would be terminated. They did not meet and legal test to do so. In contrast Delta because of very poor management was in danger of being liquidated. We were down to 1.1 billion in cash and the retirement funds were all below 60 percent of required funding the pilot fund was funded less then 25 percent. Trying to compare the two chapter 11 filings is not a apples to apples snapshot. I agree AMR will come out better then we did however the rates they got in exit were tied directly to what we accomplished. As far as them blowing us out of the water on 737 costs its simply not true. Our pay rates our virtually even. Our benefit package is quite a bit more costly. In total in 2012 they list us at 219k per pilot and SWA at 193K per pilot with retirement and benefits.

And what if we were on par, cost wise (which we are most definitely not)? Should we look at everybody who flies a 737 and tie our pay to that? Bull Feces. If everybody were generating the same profit then, maybe.....but they are not. We outpaced the industry in profits this year by a nearly 2-1 margin. Just because the old UsAir's 12 year captain rate on the 73 was what? 80 bucks an hour less than ours, must we then bargain down to them. If they are making money and we are not, then maybe. Certainly not when we made $2B.

Again your points are valid on what were making. Can you put out what Delta made in the 2 years prior to the contract being signed? In 2001 we signed a great contract and the company had been doing better on a relative basis then today. The results from the June quarter that year however were disturbing with the biggest drop in business revenue in the history of the airline. That was before 911. Contracts almost always follow what you made in the years prior. Its hard to look forward in this industry. That is one of the things DALPA looked at. They felt better profits were coming so they pushed and got a very short contract to try and take advantage of future profits. Our competitors all signed 6 year contracts.

. I mean for cripe's sake, how much money does DAL have to make before we can be on par with a 737 only airline. (which we are not, so please don't shovel that crap again.)

Again I ask how much were we making in the years before the contract was signed. I expect a lot in the next contract with our current profit margin.

I honestly mean that respectively, though I'm sure it doesn't seem so but....

Actually I like the tone of your post and believe you do mean it respectively. You need however to look at circumstances and time lines surrounding the events you mentioned, especially the AMR chapter 11 filing. It bears no relevance to Delta filing.

One last point. I have asked lots of pilots who are very bitter with DALPA and events what they would have done better. What method they would have used to produce the contractual results they want. The only answer I ever get is we needed to be tougher. When I ask how you get though the RLA process and NMB being tougher I get the same thing. A blank look and then a mumbled "I don't know". 30 years ago we actually had some options in that regard. Today a court system loaded with anti labor republican judges have neutered unions in that regard. Stupid actions of a few unions have allowed them to make precedent setting rulings. AMR was one of those unions.

That's Johnny Freaking Football.

Down 21-3 in the first to DUKE, then 38-17 at the half, it looked like A&M was headed to an embarrassing loss in a game they were favored by 13.5.

Then JFF brought em back. And where was I? Watching some sort of HGTV marathon or something with the wife. Yeah.

The show is called Flip or Flop. This couple flips houses.

http://img.poptower.com/pic-115604/f...how.jpg?d=1024

And she sells them or something.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3...D550/ry%3D400/

Yeah, don't cry for me Argentina I'll be fine. The game is on the phone when I want to check the score.

So far, as has been standard practice for the last decade, DALPA's response has been to parrot management's position. They've even "one upped" management and added the extra-contractual suggestion that a pilot contact scheduling and inform them "they are not FAR legal..." I want a strong pushback from our union. So far, we're not seeing that. They are once again squandering an excellent opportunity to rally the pilots.

Rather than stake out the most conservative position that our contract allows for, DALPA's is already setting themselves up to try and prove themselves to be "reasonable" in case this goes to arbitration. It's the same strategy that has failed us time and time again. Meanwhile, management insists that you have to acknowledge a trip within 2 hours of attempted contact. They couldn't care less about being reasonable.

“No certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment for any reserve or flight duty period unless the flightcrew member is given a rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours immediately before beginning the reserve or flight duty period measured from the time the flightcrew member is released from duty. The 10 hour rest period must provide the flightcrew member with a minimum of eight uninterrupted hours of sleep opportunity.” Pilots who acknowledge a reserve assignment more than three but less than 10 hours prior to report should contact Crew Scheduling and notify them that they are not FAR legal to accept the assignment."

The contractual schedule check coming off an X day has to occur before 2am on your first on call day. Then you need 10 hours of rest per FAR 117 that is where the no report before noon comes from. It is also in the SD memo. The 3pm schedule check used to be beneficial because at 3:01 pm if nothing was on your schedule you were on long call starting at midnight, they could not add anything after 3pm. Now there is not benefit to checking at 3pm because you are guaranteed to be on long or short call starting noon or after on your first day. A bunch of people in my category saved scheduling by yellow slipping trips that they would not have been legal to do had they not put in a yellow slip. Hopefully people will learn that the only quality of life improvement 117 has brought to a reserve guy is that there is no worry of an early sign in on day one.

good post, Too Tall. Concise and helpful. Thanks.

I'm about the middle of the 73N Captain list. I flew 687 block hours last year. My 12-31-13 paycheck shows total pay(flight pay/profit share/flight advance) of $240,600 and company retirement contributions of $33,688.

Does she come with an FAA form 337?

Thanks for the good word!

(yeah, been everywhere ... bang for buck, schools & QOL, give me North Atlanta, a Coke product and a Boeing ... and you'll not hear a lot of beyatchin')

For some people anger and complaining must just be a habit they do not want to let go of.