Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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You had me right up until you said "Go Cards"!:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 1585829)

Your history is inaccurate and incomplete.

3B6 was used to achieve the "Delta Dot." Leo didn't just threaten to park the 777 - he in fact did defer delivery on all but the 2 already operating aircraft. At the time we had 13 firm orders, 20 options and 30 rolling options for B777 aircraft. After 3B6 and C2K we wound up with a fleet of 8 (the 2 already in the fleet, 5 already in production and 1 inside the delivery cutoff line delivered in early 2002). The rest were cancelled.

Post C2k Delta furloughed 1310 pilots. We continued to take C2K pay increases that greatly inflated FAE for those at the top of the list. From 2000-2005 our pension went from 140% funded to 54% funded. C2K caused an overnight 20+% decrease in funding due to wage inflation. The rest was caused by low interest rates, an early retirement run on the bank, and investment returns during the recession.

The Delta C2K pay rates lasted until November 2004. The UAL rates only lasted until 2002(?). At USAirways they lasted a month. AMR, CAL, NWA never saw those rates. UPS, FedEx and SWA, three airlines that have been profitable throughout the last decade, have never matched those rates. 1060 of our furloughed guys never got a dime of those rates. And the early retirees took a haircut along with the rest of us when the pension was terminated.

So when we look back fondly on C2K, maybe we should do it in a more complete context. The payrates were great...for those on the property.

Excellent analysis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 1585829)

Y
So when we look back fondly on C2K, maybe we should do it in a more complete context.

So what context would you put C12 in? Since you're dishing out the hindsight, why don't you apply it to C12?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManager (Post 1585793)

All I will say is this: name the one contract you have had at DL where you believe the ALPA negotiators and the pilot trainees were significantly successful.

'96? C12k? Or was it *c2k?

Presently, the pilot flying your equipment and seat after POS 96 makes more than you do now adjusted for inflation/cost of living.

Maybe it's time for us to explore the idea as a collective body. Doing the same thing over decades that hasn't yield meaningful gains since deregulation is insane.

Next and more important issue.

Now, this is a divided group. Half the list is ****ed they are a scourge and cancer as labeled by their own CBA. The CBA has also done no bridge building and has not addressed some of the more practical and thoughtful complaints that pilots both pro ALPA and pro DPA have. Business as usual.

Take the above paragraph and divide things along seniority lines. We will be adding many pilots prior to ratification of the next agreement. We will be losing many to 65. Demographics will shift by the month instead of by the years.

Junior pilots will want to hold out for a max raise. More in their 401k NOW while they are fairly new to the list and career.

Senior pilots will want to take what ever they can bank as soon as possible. TVo$. They also want to adjust how we are paid, LBP to account for the scant number of premium wide body seats available as they get closer to 65.

Basically, this is ALPAs serious problem. How do you unite everyone, DPA, senior, junior, and the die hard ALPA lifers?

I know how, but no one here will like the answer.

* ( for the new hires ) sure, c2k was a great gain. Here is the problem. We got it because of one fact. 3b6. This was a contract provision we used in the late 90s to extract good pay rates when Leo the CEO bought 777s, 73Ns, and 767-4s. Basically it worked like this: fly them for six mos, no pay rate consensus during negotiations, then park them. Leo threatened to sell every 777. Some guys were running around incontinent and frantically hysterical about how the sky was falling.

Leo obviously didn't sell them and that is how Dalpa levered a great pay rate out of the company. Great job!! United, then in negotiations, had already agreed on rates while negotiating their TA. After our 3B6 lever, they had to go back and re do the compensation. This was during the famous "Summer of United" that was displayed prominently on all the media outlets.

They eventually were successful and patterned off our 3b6 wages and ratified their new TA. We then patterned scant dollars above them and ratified as well giving us C2k. Notably missing from C2K was one important tool. 3B6. It was explained that they had to give it away to secure that patterned rate that was in some cases a dollar more that UALs contract???

Imagine a world today with 3B6 still in it today. It was a significantly strategic tool that had little impact from the RLA and the NMB.

Enough for now, spring training is cranking up and it's going to be in the 80's. :)

Your understanding of how the 777 negotiations is a bit flawed. The company purchased 16 on firm order. We opened for a extremely high rate. I think it was around 400 an hour. The company offered around 270. Talks broke off and the company sold the positions on the last 8 aircraft. We came back to the table and finally agreed on numbers within a few percent of what the company offered to start. In the end we settled near the companies number and lost half the airframes. Not a huge success.
3b6 today would be of limited to no value. The company learned their lesson and vowed never to make a aircraft purchase without inked pay rates under 3b6. That's the main reason we let it go.

So are you saying that telling the company to pound salt in negotiations didn't work all that well?:eek:

Sailing, you said that the company vowed to not make a purchase without inked pay rates. What about the 321?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spudhauler (Post 1585977)

Sailing, you said that the company vowed to not make a purchase without inked pay rates. What about the 321?

(a) the 717 didn't have a pay rate either when it was announced, but the company got one before it showed up on the property.

(b) the A321s aren't on the property yet. I bet you'll see a pay rate before we see the airplanes. There are two years before the first ones are delivered. Maybe C15 would have a rate in there? :rolleyes:

iaflyer, I have no doubt you are correct, but, and I realize I'm splitting hairs, he stated that they wouldn't make a purchase without the rates. We've announced the purchase already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManager (Post 1585793)

Junior pilots will want to hold out for a max raise. More in their 401k NOW while they are fairly new to the list and career.

Funny, 95% of the junior (less than 5yrs) FO's I flew with during that time, said they were voting yes. When I asked why in the world they would vote for a 3% raise, especially in light of 2004 rates, they usually replied it was the most money they had ever made (many had come from the rj world).

And further, they weren't really concerned about what we were paid in 2004, only what we were paid since they were hired.

I think the more new hires we have with no personal knowledge of the past, the less likely we'll ever restore our buying power to the glory days. It is what it is.

Great theory, though. :rolleyes:

Sailing and Slowplay.

Thanks for the refresher on the 3b6/777 timeline. At the time this was occurring I was relatively new. I missed the lead up but was present for the end. Was there at one time an airframe parked for a period during the negotiations?

Never forget the day when flying with a 767 LCA. As we passed the TOC on the way up the hill, he became extremely agitated at the sight of a static 777 and thus of course Leo as well. He was still going at it at level off.

T. Where do I start T? First, I have seen TC once in the ATL lounge going toe to toe with a capt rep. Never have laid eyes on him since and I would memorize his number if we were ever in the same category. I actually take extreme offense to your comment about offering him congratulations.

We all have a real problem on our hands with TC. He needs to cease and desist now. He won't. He is incapable as this isn't about DPA, it is about his own twisted and maniacal vendetta against the company and ALPA. I predict he will continue until he blows his credit line and his doners money on his hacker gate and litigation. At that point he can back out saying he would continue except for the fact that he has no funds to.

Sadly, we will be a fractured group without unity when we need it the most.

However, as much as TC needs to put up or get out now, ALPA also needs to work to rebuild unity. I have been an ALPA volunteer on three occasions in my past. I have been with ALPA for over twenty years with 3 airlines. I support ALPA.

However, I have seen many different ways of how various MECs have practiced their stewardship. Some were effective and bold, some were constantly on their heels, others proactive and inclusive and had the full backing of their membership.

The ones that had the full support of their pilots were successful. They adapted to the issues that challenged them. I have never seen an issue though as challenging as the one we face. Uniting everyone in less than a year.

Presently we have two very polarized groups. ALPA likely will need to work the middle ground to have a chance in '15. There is a laundry list of items that could be included that Dalpa could address to work that middle ground. That is for another time though.

What is important though is that the company is aware of this fracture and will act accordingly to capitalize on it. Last thing I'd expect them to do is start behaving heavy handed and give all the pilots a reason to come together against a common cause.