Originally Posted by UGBSM (Post 1594348)

Well, since you asked...

I wasn't. Back when it mattered to me. In 1991.

If Delta wants to buy RJ's, or any aircraft at all, that's their prerogative. Always has been. Delta can interview and hire Delta pilots and we'll fly 'em. Delta did not do that.

NOW, years later, you're talking about merging many other airline's pilots that Delta did not interview and hire and negotiating SLI's and all the chaos that comes with that, keeping in mind that a staple is in no way a given. Then dealing with the inevitable DFR lawsuits. Now the pilot voting membership is suddenly way more junior on average, and guess what kind of a contract they'll want? Not necessarily the same objectives our current seniority list wants.

So... no thanks.

And spare me the pie in the sky "solutions" that have about as much merit as a national seniority list. Please try to understand my point of view. Age and seniority do play a part in how each person views these kinds of things.

Originally Posted by LeineLodge (Post 1594359)

First of all, and I don't intend this to sound confrontational, it is our flying to take back. DCI flying exists as an exception in Section 1 of the Delta PWA. And yes, we absolutely want it back - some more than others.

As to the second part I bolded above, no I don't think DCI pilots should be shown the door. The question is how to do it so nobody is "harmed."

The main problem that might create this opportunity is the lack of pilots at the DCI carriers. If we can somehow leverage that into fixing the company's staffing problem, we might have a chance of undoing some of the evil that has been done to this profession. Bar points out that we need to return this to a career worth pursuing. To do that, there must be a path (not the current dead end) to an actual career. Enough of this BS about paying dues.

That said, there is no way in hell this thing gets off the ground if there is any form of assertion by the DCI pilots that they merit an integration above the bottom of the mainline lists. Call it arrogant, or whatever you want, but it is true. It will be opposed to the end of time by the mainline MEC's - so how do we get around that?

Each group needs to be stroked to make this happen. It would have to be something like this:

1. Management - they need to protect their feed, ensuring that the small jets are staffed properly. They also will require (especially the first mover) that any solution does not jack their costs substantially higher than the other big Legacies.

2. Mainline Pilots - need to be protected against any further career stagnation. Any solution that doesn't at least remain "career neutral" will be met with overwhelming resistance. Most would love to see the flying brought home - for furlough protection, upgrade opportunities, and even some for rehabilitation of this profession.

3. Regional Pilots - they need a career. They're sick of the carrot and the whip. Any solution, especially one that will attract new entrants to the profession, must include a mainline seniority number and all the pay/benefits that go along with it.

One solution: To solve management's math problem (Slowplay :D ) the costs can't get out of control, at least not initially. Delta would likely have to wait until the performance gets so bad that the regional contracts can be cancelled - it's unlikely the regional management teams will just give it up. Once they go all Freedom on us, Delta could reclaim their contracts and offer to assume leases of the airframes that they aren't already on the hook for.

The pilots currently flying them would be offered employment as a newhire on a temporary B scale (at least it's not C-scale right?) They would receive a Delta ID and seniority number, and would continue flying the airplanes at their current rates. This would allow the cost to be increased over a period of time to the Delta PWA rates, at which point the B scale would dissolve.

Of course this gets more expensive for Delta, but they also save in all the ways that have been pointed out of the past 20 years (redundant crews, management layers, etc, etc). Importantly, the brand benefits, employees are more motivated because they now have equity in the brand, and these pilots have a career to look forward to. Mainline pilots are happy that the flying is back, and they weren't harmed during the process.

There are many details to work out, such as how to decide the seniority list order when folding in the multitude of DCI carriers. The only way I see to do that is to determine the number of pilot slots being absorbed from each carrier and then start offering the spots to each group's #1 on a rotating basis until everyone is tacked onto the list. There will undoubtedly be some that are ****ed, but that's inevitable.

Of course everything I just typed is an academic exercise until Delta/United/AA decide that they want to play in this game. As Bar pointed out earlier, there is a first-mover advantage that will lock in a great percentage of the carrier's required work force. If Delta were to pull this trigger first, it could very well leave AA and/or United way up a creek WRT staffing...

Originally Posted by LeineLodge (Post 1594371)

I'd really like to see this line of thinking go away. Granted, there are plenty of tools out there flying RJ's, but the vast majority of guys are just like you and I. They are already flying Delta pax. They are already flying your family when you go on vacation pretty much anywhere. They are already flying internationally, overwater and in big jets that passengers think are mainline jets.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1594347)

Just explaining the "why."

There are two ways to get to a merger. First, is when an airline's management wants a merger for their business. Second, when the workers force the matter.

In the second case, at Delta, the Delta Pilot Working Agreement with management stipuates that if the Company acquires an airline which operates aircraft above the limit of permitted aircraft (over 76 seats) then management has agreed to a merger.

The other way to force a merger would be to ask the National Mediation Board to find that the acquired carrier is part of a single transportation system and that the employees are part of the same craft and class for representation. The reason why Compass was unceremoniously kicked out of the Delta representational structure was to help define those small jet pilots outside of the "craft and class" of Delta pilots. ALPA has worked to define permitted flying as no longer Delta flying, performed by Delta pilots, so as to avoid a merger.

Originally Posted by UGBSM (Post 1594348)

NOW, years later, you're talking about merging many other airline's pilots that Delta did not interview and hire .... Please try to understand my point of view. Age and seniority do play a part in how each person views these kinds of things.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1594393)

Unfortunately, the Pinnacle SSP is proving his line of thinking more correct. Of the senior lifer group, less than 30% were able to make the cut.

Originally Posted by LeineLodge (Post 1594371)

I'd really like to see this line of thinking go away. Granted, there are plenty of tools out there flying RJ's, but the vast majority of guys are just like you and I. They are already flying Delta pax. They are already flying your family when you go on vacation pretty much anywhere. They are already flying internationally, overwater and in big jets that passengers think are mainline jets.

I respect that you are looking out for your own interests, but if a solution to this came along, that happened far below you on the seniority list, would you really oppose it?

Edit: Btw, there are about 5,000ish pilots on the seniority list that Delta didn't interview and hire. In my experience most pilots are more the same than they are different. I don't think you have anything to fear by a "non-Delta hired invasion." I'm willing to bet about 99% of them would be tickled pink to be here.

Originally Posted by Starcheck102 (Post 1594361)

Because mainlines don't need to buy regionals. The regionals are all fee-for-departure. There is no economic incentive whatsoever for a major to buy any of them.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1594408)

Yes Sir, trying to understand your point of view.

Would you rather have a 9,500 hour former RJ Captain in your right seat who has seen most of the airports you fly to and who has experience with weather and things going not quite right ... or would you rather have a Delta scholarship winning 250 hour Multi Pilot License Certificate holder who logged 210 of those hours in a sim, having learned most of what they know from a DVD.

Those are probably your choices if you remain a 717A for the next five years. What is your preference?

As for me, I would prefer to fly with an experienced First Officer who was mentored through his express flying days by a Captain executing the responsibilities of his flight deck as directed by Delta Air Lines. A pilot who's training was based on a scientific approach which incorporates the lessons learned by ALPA's safety and training experts.