Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

That doesn't mean its as simple as turning the first thing down all the time just because. In fact I don't agree with that at all. But likewise we shouldn't jump on every first agreement automatically either. If in this economic climate we're still having to fund our gains from other areas, then what else are we going to give in in C2015 to pay for whatever we get? Even if its a net positive, where else can we cut? And why should we have to cut anything at this point?

Agreed. Each agreement needs to be examined thoroughly, turned inside and out, and passed through our lower intestines as Dana Carvey's version of Ross Perot might have said. :D

At the same time, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I don't have access to all of the information that my reps and negotiators have, so I can't make a decision with the same amount of education that they can. That said, I can certainly decide whether it's worth X amount of money to have SDPs in the contract. ;)

hockeypilot44

05-27-2014 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 1652830)

While I get that in principle (principal?), the company clearly and to be honest, desperately, needed a deal WRT 117 rules for reserves. That's the only reason there were negotiations in the first place. If we turned it down and walked away, the status quo with its potentially devistating (and highly likely winnable from our point) grievance down the road was a real threat to them.

Likewise with C2012 there was absolutely no way whatsoever they were going to re-engine and heavy check the world's largest 50 seat RJ fleet to keep all of them on the schedule for decades. Zero percent chance. While they could have gotten more large RJ's without a deal, they would have had to have parked fairly new 70's to make it happen as well as boost the mainline fleet to incredibly high numbers just to make the math work. And they'd still have to eat the 50 seat albatrosses as well.

That doesn't mean its as simple as turning the first thing down all the time just because. In fact I don't agree with that at all. But likewise we shouldn't jump on every first agreement automatically either. If in this economic climate we're still having to fund our gains from other areas, then what else are we going to give in in C2015 to pay for whatever we get? Even if its a net positive, where else can we cut? And why should we have to cut anything at this point?

That's easy. We are out of compliance in our JV with no intent to come into compliance. That will be given up or modified in exchange for money in my opinion.

Carl Spackler

05-27-2014 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1652418)

Carl, did you ask him about the pay and credit look back.

Yes I did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1652418)

You stated I made it up.

Not quite. I said you were a Walking Wikipedia, i.e., doling out a lot of information, but the vast majority of it wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1652418)

Others have now confirmed it and I confirmed it again. So what did your rep say when directly asked? Tell him to check his summary received.

Here's what happened. During one point in direct negotiations, an ADG lookback for pay only was indeed a point that was discussed due to the November date of implementation of 5:15 ADG. But BEFORE the TA was signed by the company and our negotiators, they MUTUALLY AGREED to remove this item. Therefore the ADG pay/no credit monthly lookback item was not in the first TA which contained CDO's. When we went back to the company to remove CDO's, we weren't asked to remove the ADG monthly lookback because it was never in any version of the TA.

Carl

Denny Crane

05-27-2014 07:37 PM

Riddle me this, there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 three day guys available for a three day trip tomorrow and 1 four day guy. How does the 4 day guy get assigned the 3 day trip?

Denny

newKnow

05-27-2014 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Crane (Post 1652902)

Riddle me this, there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 three day guys available for a three day trip tomorrow and 1 four day guy. How does the 4 day guy get assigned the 3 day trip?

Denny

Are the 3 day guys due 30 hours off in a 7 day (16? hour) period?

Carl Spackler

05-27-2014 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1652426)

As an aside, there will likely always be a price to be paid for going back to amend an agreement once the initial handshake is complete. That is the downside of turning down a TA. That is not to say that we should simply rubberstamp everything our reps do, but we need to recognize that it's not as simple as it might otherwise sound.

That's why it's so critical for the negotiators to follow the direction of the reps to the letter. If they can't get it from management, then you walk away. You don't just sign off on something you think is close. Yet "Scrappy's" team has now done that twice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1652426)

The best course of action, IMO, is to have a strong system of communication between us and our reps, and between them and the Negotiating Committee. That way, we stand the best chance of reaching a first TA that is acceptable, and a better understanding of why that TA falls short of our goals, if that is the case. We can then make the most educated decision possible when we cast our votes.

It's way simpler than that Alan. The reps communicate to the NC, and the NC listens! Period. If you don't like that, then resign of the NC, because that's the rules. Scrappy has flouted the rules twice now by bringing TA's that did not meet the direction. The first time, they got away with it because our reps didn't fight it. This time, it failed because the pilots had seen this movie before and wanted their money back.

This "system" we've devolved into can't be defended. Nobody could argue this is optimum. We look weak and foolish right now in management's eyes. We need to change that if possible before C2015 openers. One nice change would be to strictly abide by our own policies.

Carl

Express pilot

05-27-2014 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Crane (Post 1652902)

Riddle me this, there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 three day guys available for a three day trip tomorrow and 1 four day guy. How does the 4 day guy get assigned the 3 day trip?

Denny

Just give them a call and ask why.

They are new or b/c they can. They seem to always have a reason.

Carl Spackler

05-27-2014 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hillbilly (Post 1652509)

This "special select subcommittee" to the scheduling committee intrigues me. There are very few subcommittees to the scheduling committee (PBS, RCC, ?). The FRMT is now under the safety umbrella and not scheduling. Did the rep mention what subcommittee it was?

Yes. This subcommittee of the scheduling committee was created specifically for 117 negotiations. Their charge was to find a way to increase pay/credit hours per day while still remaining within the new legal framework defined by 117. One of the concepts this subcommittee devised to raise pay/credit time was the adoption of CDO's.

Carl

Carl Spackler

05-27-2014 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1652574)

Talk to your reps. The statements you are making are incorrect.

No, Fly4hire's statements were correct. You are incorrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1652574)

There were many meetings between the neg. com. And the MEC reps.

That's true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1652574)

They were fully aware of what was happening and provided the direction that produced the TA.

Almost right except the last and most important part. The first TA that included CDO's did not include the specific conditions and limitations insisted upon by the reps in order for them to support the inclusion of CDO's. When the reps saw the TA and the absence of their conditions and limitations, many were angry and wanted the NC to go back to the table and get them. Huge FUD campaign ensued with all the typical reasons as to why you couldn't ask the NC to go back to the table after they'd signed the TA with management. The reps probably would have been cowed into submission were it not for the near record influx of calls and emails to our reps and the MEC admin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1652574)

The reps were not blindsided in any way.

Maybe not, but the NC was damn sure blindsided by the reps' resolve. And our reps' resolve was a direct result of line pilot outrage.

Carl

Denny Crane

05-27-2014 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 1652910)

Are the 3 day guys due 30 hours off in a 7 day (16? hour) period?

I just looked again, there are 3 three day guys and they are all on shortcall tomorrow (along with the 2 two day guys and the one 5 day guy). Everybody is on shortcall except the 1 day guys...

I've just got to wonder....

I did try calling, was asked to call back later. Haven't done it yet.

Denny

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