Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver (Post 1680872)

There are much worse things in life that can happen than losing money.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1680846)

So, now we enter the silly season. It is amazing how you try to have a discussion based on facts and then it turns to insanity.

Listen, my friend, if you are looking for sympathy over recent events I can tell you that you are knocking on the wrong door. I would love to change the past but unfortunately that is not the way the world really works.

This is how it really works. In bankruptcy (which occurred in 2005-2007 if you can't remember that far back) we gave four years of non-pension concessions that averaged $150 million per year. 4 times 150 is $600 million. Are you keeping up so far? The pension is technically not a negotiated concession because there is no way to negotiate to terminate a defined benefit plan but let's just call that a concession to keep you from blowing your head apart. That was $900 million. Now in my calculator $900 million plus $600 million is $1.5 billion.

Returns. We got a $2.1 billion claim that netted pilots around $1.35 billion when it was sold. We got $650 million cash. Pull out your calculator and add those two and you should get $2.0 billion.

Now is $2.0 billion more than $1.5 billion? Yes or no?

So those are the facts. Take your self centered pity somewhere else because it won't work on me. No spin, just the real world. Now we can return to the usual silliness because I guess we have had enough of the real world for now.

Wake up, the world does not give a crap about what you think you are owed. No one cares, least of all me. If you let that form the basis of how you approach a business negotiation, you might as well surrender right now. You are really a sorry sight, quit feeling sorry for yourself, there are much worse things that can happen than losing a little money.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1681056)

I think you are way off on the retirement numbers. The plan had over 5 billion in obligations and only 1 billion in assets. If it was only short 900 million in funding it would not even have been considered in distress and termination would not have been possible.
I do agree that all the different pots of money that have come are way since the bankruptcy seem to be forgotten by many.

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1681061)

Manager: PM coming. I suggest you take it to heart.

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1681055)

This is the most true thing you have ever said. What is interesting though, is that money is the cornerstone of any argument you ever make regarding our contract.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1681056)

I do agree that all the different pots of money that have come are way since the bankruptcy seem to be forgotten by many.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1680846)

The pension is technically not a negotiated concession because there is no way to negotiate to terminate a defined benefit plan but let's just call that a concession to keep you from blowing your head apart. That was $900 million.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1680530)

Okay, if you now want to have a rational conversation then let's have one.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1680530)

Your position now is that it is good faith bargaining if we allow management to change the contract as long as there is no value in the changes they seek. We, however are allowed to seek changes with value, supposedly a lot of value.

Originally Posted by Check Essential (Post 1681082)

It all depends on how long you live of course, but I figure the loss of my pension cost me at least $1 million and maybe $2 million. And I'm just one guy.

How do you figure the entire pilot group only lost $900 million when they took our pensions?
The real number is more like 5 or 10 times that much.