I get it now. And I've edited my post.

You are not wrong.

Not sure what you mean here. I am not familiar with NWA's staffing formula, but ours has only been changed to require more pilots since the merger. The point is that if this TA creates more credit time via ADG, CDO guarantee, etc., then more pilots will be required. If other aspects of the TA overcome any such gains to reduce total block and credit hours, then fewer pilots will be required.

I see the Company doing nothing different staffing-wise than they've done ever since I've been here.

True -- about 125, from what I recall from the roadshows, but an increased total pilot cost (for the same number of pilots) of $400M per year.

Sorry, but I don't see anyone doing that. I only see hard debate on a number of thorny issues, with good points being made on both sides. Why not simply keep that up, rather than looking for political boogymen in every post?

Thanks, Pineapple. :) (And I know you don't agree with my comment about DALPA. I appreciate, like you said, that you agree with my views on this issue.)

Moak can refuse to sign it.

Chance of that --> zero

It kind of sounds like you are saying that the Delta Pilots who fly 7er, 765, A330, etc are smarter and more responsible than the Delta pilots who fly MD88s and 717s (or whomever would end up flying these CDOs)

I'm not sure I would buy that, although I would submit that Maddog pilots are better looking.

Here's some more food for thought on the CDO issue:

This is a VERY long document.

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...-FinalRule.pdf

I don't have time tonight to go all the way through it and pick everything out that applies to this discussion. But a quick skim through yielded the following, which I think directly addresses the safety issue with CDO's... given the FACT that most pilots flying CDO's do NOT get any significant amount of sleep during the day and count on the rest break during the CDO for most of their sleep for the 24 hour period, i.e. the pilot does NOT get anywhere near 8 hours of sleep in the 24 hour period and operates a flight toward the end of that period in a sleep deprived condition:

Amount of recent sleep.
If a person has had significantly less than 8 hours of sleep in the past 24 hours, he or she is more likely to be fatigued.

Time awake.
A person who has been continually awake for a long period of time since his or her last major sleep period is more likely to be fatigued.

Cumulative sleep debt.
For the average person, cumulative sleep debt is the difference between the amount of sleep a person has received over the past several days, and the amount of sleep he or she would have received with 8 hours of sleep a night.

Scientific research and experimentation have consistently demonstrated that adequate sleep sustains performance. For most people, 8 hours of sleep in each 24-hour period sustains performance indefinitely. Sleep opportunities during the WOCL are preferable because sleep that occurs during the WOCL provides the most recuperative value. Within limits, shortened periods of nighttime sleep may be nearly as beneficial as a consolidated sleep period when augmented by additional sleep periods, such as naps before evening departures, during flights with augmented flightcrews, and during layovers. Sleep should not be fragmented with interruptions. In addition, environmental
conditions, such as temperature, noise, and turbulence, impact how beneficial sleep is and how performance is restored. When a person has accumulated a sleep debt, recovery sleep is necessary to fully restore the person’s “sleep reservoir.” Recovery sleep should include at least one physiological night, that is, one sleep period during nighttime hours in the time zone in which the individual is acclimated. The average person requires in excess of 9 hours of sleep a night to recover from a sleep debt.

In the NPRM, the FAA stated that fatigue factors are “universal.” The FAA noted that sleep science, while still evolving, was clear in several important respects: most people need eight hours of sleep to function effectively, most people find it more difficult to sleep during the day than during the night, resulting in greater fatigue if working at night; the longer one has been awake and the longer one spends on task, the greater the likelihood of fatigue; and fatigue leads to an increased risk of making a mistake.

Tsquare, from what I have read I understand you are a check airman at Delta? If yes, you are one of the guys teaching and instilling the principle of safety above all else to those you train. I may not agree with you on everything you write but I do thank you for the position you seem to be taking with regard to CDO's and how they relate to safety.

George,

Quite ingenious as usual, and I hate to throw a fly into your ointment but I believe that the CDOs do not qualify for the 5:15 ADG but a separate 7:30 guarantee for both days.

Then again - all we have to go on at present is the Chairman's letter and the I called my Reps and heard that Ferris got sick at 31 flavors type of second hand information - so maybe you are on to something.

Finally with regards to CDOs it appears to me that there may be more pitfalls than potential gains from the company in operating them. Maybe they will be rare enough so that only the guys who want them, have to fly them. I really think we (the frequent posters on this thread) are for the most part over doing our angst on the whole CDO thing.
Then again maybe there will be tons of them. :eek:

Some of the stuff sounds pretty good, and since my bid package is already 30% first leg red-eyes I am not worried about doing a CDO if I have to fly one.

In case you guys forgot our motto on the LAX 737 is "We own the night!" Hell, some of the junior guys in category probably can't even fly if the sun is up. :D

Buzz flies originating red-eyes a lot more than I do so I am curious to hear his opinion on this matter.


Scoop

I already voted. Didn't you?

My rep likely favors MEMRAT as a general philosophy; he has openly mentioned in LEC meetings. I hope they look at whether the deal is good first, and once that conversation and debate has concluded make their determination if it is beneficial for the pilot group.

if that answer is "Yes", then I hope they do the same due diligence with a completely open mind on the advantages/ disadvantages of MEMRAT, and then vote accordingly.

They are separate votes with separate deliberations.

MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME.

The bigger question in my mind as we head into this next section six is whether the minority (if there is one, I'd love a unanimous vote as a show of unity from the leadership) will throw the majority under the bus or if they will support the majority as another way of displaying unity.

I'm tired of 10-9 votes and "it's not my fault" council comms that often come afterward.