I thought I saw somewhere in this thread that the rules for CDOs were no more than 2 legs, max of 2 hours each, with a rest break of 6 hours between. I don't see how 4 hours of flying is going to make for a horrible day. This idea of Redeyes are bad, 5 AM reports are good is really up to each individual. I have problems when you are mixing them within a 2-3 day period. If I am on a Redeye sleep schedule in LAX then my sleep period is usually 2-3 AM PT until 10-11 AM PT for the redeye report. Now, if I am supposed to get up at 7 or 8 AM ET on day 3 that means I am supposed to be awake during my "normal" sleep schedule (which after the redeye had me asleep until 2 or 3 PM ET after the redeye) - I am usually poorly rested (I won't say fatigued to work) for that last day of the trip. It is when you keep flopping your sleep schedules around that you get messed up. We did some all night exercises my last couple of years in the AF and we reported at 9 PM and left for home at 7 AM the next morning. Even with the kids in school and relatively quiet in the morning I didn't sleep well and it was worse on weekends while I tried to catch up (NOT) and did the same thing the next week - two of my most challenging flying weeks of my career.

Chairman's letter says 7:30 guarantee for CDO. Do 3 of them for 22:30 credit VS a 3 day 30 hour layover trip worth 15 or so. Don't see less manning coming out of that but again need to see the details and restrictions. Put me down for memrat.

Must be augmented entire time.

If you do 3 CDOs isn't that 6 days then? Paying 22:30?

I guess you could look at it that way. I am thinking along the lines of a 10pm to 8 am duty period. I see what you are saying though.

Total BS. That's not at all what I said or implied, and I think you know it.

Typical DALPA political strategy of attacking the integrity of the messenger instead of debating the actual points. You should be ashamed.

Not at all what I said. CDO's were originally invented as a way to get around the INTENT of the FAR rest requirements. Then the folks who wrote FAR 117 took it to a whole other level by putting language in that actually addressed CDO's ("split duty periods") and made it legitimate. Big mistake IMO. Those things should have been banned a long time ago.

If you think that most pilots assigned CDO's are going to sleep 8 hours during the day in preparation then you are incredibly naive. As I've stated several times before, that's NOT what happens. The track record is very clear on this. Therefore, the way MOST pilots do CDO's IS unsafe. That flight in the early morning is being operated the vast majority of the time by a sleep deprived (fatigued) crew. You're not going to see me or my family on one of those flights, and I will not accept a trip like that because I could not sign the release for the morning flight signifying that I and my crew are properly rested.

I'm not generally a fan of "gubmint" being involved in our lives to much of an extent at all. But where do you draw the line? We need to have some kind of rules about how much rest we have to get, don't we? Or are you suggesting that they do away with FAR 117 and any other regulations that would mandate rest requirements and just rely on everybody to do the right thing and show up for their trips rested? Every man for himself... it's the wild, wild west for airline pilot scheduling. Give the airlines Carte Blanche to schedule us however they want to and leave it to the individual to use the fatigue card when necessary. No rules. Is that what you think should happen?

Setting CDO's aside for a second. I admittedly don't have the augmentation rules open in front of me, but what's to stop them from doing augmented transcon turns into redeyes?

Reminds me of a story from a friend who flew for Skywest. Captain shows up for CDO ("Stand-Up Overnight") which is delayed due to weather. He had gauged his ability to complete the CDO based upon showing up and flying there and flying back at the scheduled times. My friend said this guy could rarely sleep at the hotel for the few hours available for sleep...just couldn't turn the mind/body off that quickly to get anything resembling restorative sleep.

After a delayed departure the WX caused them to hold and go missed approach back to the departure point. The company wanted him and his crew to then launch again at 4AM to try the whole thing again (going into Jackson Hole with mountains on all sides none the less). He called in fatigued. He was suspended by the chief pilot. This fiasco later lead to him being fired (after being accused of writing defamatory words about the chief pilot on a company bulletin board). He spent his retirement money to sue and a four years later fortunately prevailed.

In this case the company pushed for pilots to fly the mission but then went after the pilots for reporting to work as not fit for duty. Damned if you do....

The calling in fatigued/sick thing is never as simple as some on here make it sound. The companies implementation of sick verification was geared toward keeping people flying, not wanting to have to do a carpet dance. If you think it's for any other purpose you are not being honest with yourself.

My opinion, if DALPA pushes and sells the CDO activity (that can and will be assigned to some pilots who will not have a choice....regardless of the speculation they will all go "senior"), they do not have a leg to stand on going forward regarding safety.

"At the start of his shift on Wednesday, March 23, 2005, Douglas met with First Officer Troy Brewer, who told him that he was tired because of lack of sleep, and Flight Attendant Brandee Black, who said she had strep throat and had to stop taking her arthritis medication because of the antibiotics she was taking.5 The normal departure time for Jackson Hole was delayed for one hour or so, and snow storms were blanketing the area. Nearing Jackson Hole, the plane could not land because of the inclement weather, was forced to circle for an hour, and then had to return to Salt Lake City, arriving around midnight."

"There, Douglas was told that he and his crew were scheduled for a 4:00 a.m. flight back to Jackson Hole and then a return.7 Douglas testified that he unexpectedly found himself feeling unwell, "just physically and mentally drained" from the previous three hours, and concluded that he and his crew would be physically incapable of attempting another flight to Jackson Hole after just a few hours' rest.8 He called the crew scheduling office to report that he and his crew were unfit and told System Chief Jim Breeze that they would not be able to complete the later flight safely. The 4:00 a.m. flight was canceled."

"Breeze informed Tony Fizer about this fact. Fizer was SkyWest's Regional Chief Pilot in Salt Lake City. Fizer called Douglas, who explained that he had made the safest decision in declaring himself and the crew unfit.9 Fizer asked Douglas to complete an Irregular Operations Report and meet with him the next day. In the report, Douglas mentioned his recent surgery and his surgeon's post-surgery recommendations.10 Fizer imposed discipline—a week's suspension without pay and a counseling statement in his record—because Douglas showed up to work "not fit for duty" and released his crew members during the shift."

Douglas v. Skywest Airlines, Inc., ARB Nos. 08-070, 08-074, ALJ No. 2006-AIR-14 (ARB Sept. 30, 2009)

In some cultures, a witch doctor throwing chicken bones on a floor IS science. In ours however, it is not. If science were truly recognized in the area of fatigue, it would not be illegal to take a nap at the controls of a dual piloted aircraft.

Science.... ygtbsm. This is all about politics.

88 Driver,

Setting aside your ALPA hystrionics, I see your point on CDO's.

Let's say he's NOT 100% naive, for arguments sake, and some % of pilots dutifully goes "night-night" at the appropriate time, to show up well rested. Best case scenario, I'm guessing they modified their sleep pattern, what, two days prior? After all, even the best intentioned boy scout, with a merit badge in scientific sleeping, isn't going to wake up from a normal night the morning of the CDO, to have a full complement of "pre-sleep" before the CDO.

So where is the benefit? What's the point of gaining a couple more hours, when you have to choose between flying tired, and ruining your time off before AND after the CDO?