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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 1646181)
If it's anything like I experienced last summer in the midst of two months of tsra activity is that if you get there too late (for instance ORF at 130am) and the FAs are doing the 6am out, they just slept in the airplane. Don't blame them really, what's the point? Save yourself 50 min of round trip driving, 10 min of checking in, TSA and that's if the hotel and van have their act together.
The FAR 117 section is very clear that in order for the airline to conduct Split Duty Ops, they must meet all 6 requirements of FAR 117.15 and one of those [117.15(d)] specifically states: (d) The rest opportunity that the flightcrew member is actually provided may not be less than the rest opportunity that was scheduled In other words, if your rotation was built to have a 6 hour break, and WX causes you to arrive 2 hours late, then they are going to have to slide the departure time of the morning flight by two hours or find someone else to fly it. Furthermore, 117.15(b) requires that the break doesn't officially start until you actually reach the "suitable accomodations" so if you are having trouble getting the hotel van at 0100 in the AM, your break doesn't start until you arrive at the hotel. Lastly, one of the requirements of Split Duty Ops is that the rest Period be provided in 'Suitable Accomodations', so even if you wanted to just stay on the airplane overnight, you'd be busting the FARs. It should be noted that the only thing we have so far from the MEC in writng regarding Split Duty period ops is this: · Establishes split duty periods with scheduling protections above and beyond the FAR and a 7:30 pay guarantee
FAR 117.15 only requires a break of at least 3 hours, so any break at Delta would have to be at least 3 hours, though the rumor floating around is a contractual minimum of 6 |
Originally Posted by capncrunch
(Post 1645795)
Now your sales point is that ALPA was just doing the pilots bidding!?!?
Have to raise the BS flag on this one.... |
Originally Posted by PilotFrog
(Post 1646234)
If you do 3 CDOs isn't that 6 days then? Paying 22:30?
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Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 1645855)
2 hours per leg.
2+15 with MEC sched chair approval. Is that 2 hours mean legal to start, legal to finish? If I get stuck in a conga line that is 30 minutes longer than planned at JFK, are we legal to continue? And I wonder what the MEC sched chair approval means... that they can unilaterally at the MEC level approve 2+15 hour legs on the monthly schedules? short answer, no. long answer, hell no Like many I am awaiting the language, and more info, but so far, unless that 117 blurb about having to have 6 hours behind the door is sacrosanct, I am not interested in this.... at all. |
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
(Post 1646245)
CDO's were originally invented as a way to get around the INTENT of the FAR rest requirements. Then the folks who wrote FAR 117 took it to a whole other level by putting language in that actually addressed CDO's ("split duty periods") and made it legitimate. Big mistake IMO. Those things should have been banned a long time ago.
If you think that most pilots assigned CDO's are going to sleep 8 hours during the day in preparation then you are incredibly naive. As I've stated several times before, that's NOT what happens. The track record is very clear on this. Therefore, the way MOST pilots do CDO's IS unsafe. That flight in the early morning is being operated the vast majority of the time by a sleep deprived (fatigued) crew. You're not going to see me or my family on one of those flights, and I will not accept a trip like that because I could not sign the release for the morning flight signifying that I and my crew are properly rested. I'm not generally a fan of "gubmint" being involved in our lives to much of an extent at all. But where do you draw the line? We need to have some kind of rules about how much rest we have to get, don't we? Or are you suggesting that they do away with FAR 117 and any other regulations that would mandate rest requirements and just rely on everybody to do the right thing and show up for their trips rested? Every man for himself... it's the wild, wild west for airline pilot scheduling. Give the airlines Carte Blanche to schedule us however they want to and leave it to the individual to use the fatigue card when necessary. No rules. Is that what you think should happen? I thought it worth mentioning that I agree 100% with your view regarding this issue.;) |
Originally Posted by Alan Shore
(Post 1646268)
I think the assumption is that you do 3 in a row, which would take 4 days.
If you departed before midnight and returned after 0200 wouldn't it pay ADG of 5:15 on the day of departure and 5:15 ADG for the return? So the trick would be to bid for the 3 in-a-row CDOs and then drop the middle one right? You'd go from 22:30 to 21:00 (4x 5:15) without having to work the middle CDO. Why would anybody sane go to work and fly a CDO for a paltry 1:30 extra for the middle CDO? Cheers George |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1646275)
Is that 2 hours mean legal to start, legal to finish? If I get stuck in a conga line that is 30 minutes longer than planned at JFK, are we legal to continue? And I wonder what the MEC sched chair approval means... that they can unilaterally at the MEC level approve 2+15 hour legs on the monthly schedules?
I do not know the answers to those questions. My guess would be yes. Legal to start legal to finish as long as your rest is not reduced. The return leg would have to be delayed. I think the MEC scheduling chairman will be very reluctant to approve 2+15. He might if the sign-in time was right and the rest was long enough. |
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
(Post 1646278)
88, I don't post much anymore, and often find myself at odds with you, but.....
I thought it worth mentioning that I agree 100% with your view regarding this issue.;) |
Originally Posted by Doug Masters
(Post 1645919)
So from what I gather its okay to fly fatigued as long as it pays well. :confused:
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
(Post 1646245)
If you think that most pilots assigned CDO's are going to sleep 8 hours during the day in preparation then you are incredibly naive. As I've stated several times before, that's NOT what happens. The track record is very clear on this. Therefore, the way MOST pilots do CDO's IS unsafe. That flight in the early morning is being operated the vast majority of the time by a sleep deprived (fatigued) crew. You're not going to see me or my family on one of those flights,
What I've heard from you and others is that "well, we already do international flights and red eyes and there's a marketing need for them....but we shouldn't add more 'unsafe flying' " Well, I'm sorry, if you believe flying during the WOCL is unsafe in Split duty Ops, then it's unsafe during International/Red eyes. I'm asking you to be consistent...if disturbed sleep flying is unsafe as a CDO, then it's unsafe as a Transpac as well. It doesn't suddenly become safe because we've always done it. Again, be consistent....if you really believe flying in the wee hours of the morning to be unsafe, then it's unsafe for all those types of operations and I will assume that if Delta announces some new Transatlantic destinations next week, you will demand that they be flown by our JV partners because they are unsafe |
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