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Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 1645864)
I went to a state college but I don't see how 2 x 11 = 44
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OKay. I see what you guys are saying about the transcons. My bad.
Maybe its the dinner and a movie trips that they are really targeting. They could save money on those if they augment. But they could do that now if they had the proper rest seat. I wish we had the TA in front of us. |
Just out of curiosity, The smallest aircraft that we have in our PWA which has a designated crew rest seat is the 757. I know that the 737 does a lot of the dinner and a movie trips to the islands and a lot of trans cons but I don't think it would be authorized as having a Class 3 facility and it doesn't list it in a PWA currently.
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Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 1645703)
Okay, I got it now. It's really not that CDO's are inherently unsafe, it's the pilot's that are violating the FAR by showing up to work unfit and fatigued that are the problem.:rolleyes:
Denny The typical pilot who flies CDO's stays up all day and gets his/her sleep at night in between flights during the CDO. The pilot then operates the early morning flight on maybe 5 hours of sleep at best, after rationalizing that he/she can "get by" on less sleep and catch up later. |
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
(Post 1645865)
The whole objective with FAR 117 was to stop pilots from flying fatigued. They should have plugged the CDO loophole if they wanted to really do that.
An example of this is the fact that they chose NOT to address what a pilot does during any required rest period, e.g., stay up all night with a colicky baby before a 0700 report, spend all day commuting in with zero sleep before an all-nighter, etc. Rather, they specified that a pilot who reports unfit for duty and/or fatigued is REQUIRED to so inform his carrier and be removed from duty. In essence, the FAR specifically limits what the Company can do and simply admonishes the pilot to "do the right thing." It sounds to me as though you do not trust your fellow Delta pilot to do that right thing. Should we perhaps petition the FAA to put into place a requirement that each pilot spend the ten hours before each duty period in a monitored, isolated facility to prevent him from acting irresponsibly prior to report? maybe we should ask the Company to save us from ourselves by having the station manager measure our fatigue and/or alertness level prior to each report. :eek: |
Originally Posted by DAWGS
(Post 1645794)
Do you have any experience with these? IMO, there is no way to do these adequately rested. A domestic 4 day red-eye trip has 1 back side of the clock duty period with good rest before or after the red-eye. Essentially what you will have is back to back CDOs, most likely 3 in a row, back side of the clock events. Huge difference. All the rest occurring at home. Another huge difference. Home during normal business hours is not that restful for the majority of us. Having done international, domestic red-eyes, and CDOs there is no comparison fatigue-wise. There is a reason these aren't at Delta right now. This is a HUGE give. Why?
I'll take a 30 hr layover 4 day, working a bit harder on the 3 actual days of work gladly over CDOs. There are many that pay like normal 4 days or more with a 30 hour break in decent cities. What is wrong with that? There are so many other factors that come into play here as well that I doubt were thought through well by the designers of 117. One is the age of the pilot doing these. The thought was probably regional younger pilots would be doing this type of flying. Having 55+ captains and 40+ FOs or older is aligning another hole. I know how I felt in my 20s. There will be no way to avoid these. People say don't bid them. Yeah right. I have what looks like code for a PBS bid and am fairly senior in cat. and get ridiculous awards from time to time. We all do except for the uber senior. If this has the muster to pass, there should be a minimum greater than the 3 hrs in the reg behind the door. I say 6 at least but they will still not be safe. Cumulative sleep debt is unavoidable. |
Usta fly 0130 am turns ORD/ATL/IND/ORD four times a week. Family man F/O usually slept all the way to Georgia. [The old early-owly deal]
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Originally Posted by Alan Shore
(Post 1645862)
And what is the minimum scheduled and actual break between legs that must be provided?
Not verified. I think its release to report but not sure. |
Originally Posted by DAWGS
(Post 1645794)
I'll take a 30 hr layover 4 day, working a bit harder on the 3 actual days of work gladly over CDOs. There are many that pay like normal 4 days or more with a 30 hour break in decent cities. What is wrong with that?
Either way, the Company will pay extra for such a situation and will work their hardest to avoid either solution. Most likely, we'll see longer and less commutable trips as a result of these changes, as opposed to a plethora of CDOs. And no more 2230 reports in LAX!! ;) |
The kicker on these CDOs is going to be the pay.
That has not been discussed on this forum yet. The 7+30 is not a straight pay number. Some of that is going to be pay/no credit for a lineholder and on top of guarantee for a reserve. Rumor is that any amount over trip rig or block is going to be premium. ie = if the CDO is 3 hours of block you will get the remaining 4+30 as pay/no credit. There could be some guys working 10 days and getting paid 100 hours. (again, state college math. buyer beware :eek:) We need to see the TA. |
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