Hard to call this a sales job. The union guys are being very tight lipped.

Information is scarce.
The sales job may come later, but not yet.

Agreed. Let the facts determine the message.

Edit: When I said the "message is being massaged very carefully" I was referring to the inside info 80 shared. This is what he passed along when the news was first breaking:

“Announcement regarding 117 will be out very shortly. Some very significant improvements coming.”

“That's all I can say. Limited details may be released by DALPA tonight, but they just got the language.”

“It's certainly a major win, and I think we'll be quite pleased when we get the full details. “

“The communique should be out in the next day or so. No one can legally give any specifics until that is vetted. It is far from cost neutral in our favor, though.”

Today, a trancon takes two pilots per leg, for a total of four pilot duty periods, plus 4 hotel rooms. With the augment, it would take three pilots per leg, for a total of six pilot duty periods and no hotel.

I'm thinking that two pilot duty periods is much more expensive than four hotel rooms.

I'm missing something.
If 3 guys take off from Atlanta and fly a Seattle turn that's 3 duty periods, right?
Roughly 11 hours block time. No layover.

Just like the senior mamas do now. The "area code" FA crews do 'em every day.

2 hours per leg.
2+15 with MEC sched chair approval.

Your math eludes me. Let's say the total time of the turn is 11 hours. 2 pilots over and 2 back is 44 hours of block, 3 over and 3 back is 66 hours of block. Block hours equal jobs.

Good call. The duty period metric was incorrect. Suppose instead that ATL SEA ATL is scheduled for 5:30 per leg (ignore the jet stream and prevailing westerlies for a moment). Today, each leg is flown by two pilots, for a total of 11 x 2 = 22 pilot pay hours, plus four hotel rooms. Tomorrow, each leg could be flown by three pilots, for a total of 11 x 3 = 33 pilot pay hours, and zero hotel rooms.

My assumption is that 11 pilot pay hours (FOs, presumably) cost more than 4 hotel rooms.

And what is the minimum scheduled and actual break between legs that must be provided?

I went to a state college but I don't see how 2 x 11 = 44

Yes. My observation has been that is exactly what happens. UPS/FedEx pilots tend to sleep during the day. Their normal duty period is at night... it's not some convoluted work-around to skirt the intent of the FAR as it has always been with CDO's. Pilots flying CDO's tend to depend on whatever sleep they can get at he hotel during the CDO. My experience has been that there is a significant difference between the way these two situations are handled. FedEx/UPS pilots utilize their rest break for sleeping. CDO pilots utilize the time in between flights during the CDO for sleeeping. The former can allow for 8 hours of sleep. The latter cannot.


In my experience with CDO's, that's a bad assumption.


The FAA should have looked at the track record of what actually happens with these CDO's, instead of burying their heads in the sand and thinking it's okay because it works out "on paper." The whole objective with FAR 117 was to stop pilots from flying fatigued. They should have plugged the CDO loophole if they wanted to really do that. I still can't believe we're even discussing this at Delta Air Lines. Ridiculous.