Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)

- Delta (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/)

- - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragtop Day (Post 1645698)

Yes, but since this covers two calendar days, wouldn't the new 5:15 ADG kick in giving 10:30 for the trip? Or am I misunderstanding how ADG is applied?

That's a misunderstanding on how ADG is applied. We really need the specific language in our hands to explain it fully but.. well... you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Crane (Post 1645697)

Actually I think it's pretty much the same as what we have now. If you start short call at 10am then immediately get assigned something, you have the 2 hours or so to get to the airport making it some time around a 12 noon show time. Which is what it has been in the past.

Denny

The way it's phrased in the chairman's letter is that you can have a trip report at 10am also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver (Post 1645638)

That's their job. That's what they signed up for. You fly for UPS/FedEx and you're going to be doing a lot of back side of the clock flying, at least while you're junior. Some people can do that and make it work. Others can't. I never applied to those companies for that exact reason. I know it wouldn't work for me. That's why I stayed on the 88 as an F/O when I could have held the 757/767 or 738. I'd rather have a root canal than do a redeye or CDO. But that's just me. I fully realize that some folks can handle this... IF they get the necessary sleep during the day.

Here's the problem with CDO's. (And, yes, I DO think they should be prohibited by FAR.) The whole reason why guys bid those is so they can be home all day, every day... get things done, spend time with the family, make more money, etc. The reality of it is the only sleep they are going to get is whatever sleep they get at the hotel in between flights. The FAA has identified 8 hours as being the amount of sleep needed for most people to be well rested. That's consistent with the widely accepted sleep science and it's the whole reason they put it in the FAR as part of the 10 hour minimum layover. CDO's will NOT provide anywhere near that amount of sleep for anyone. Therefore, I believe... no matter how much you try to rationalize it because you want to fly less and be home more, make more money, whatever... the reality is that you WILL be fatigued for that morning flight home after getting just a few short hours of sleep. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. I wouldn't put my family on a flight with pilots that are flying the morning flight on the tail end of a CDO. When I was commuting, I've passed on RJ flights and taken a later flight for that exact reason.

Okay, I got it now. It's really not that CDO's are inherently unsafe, it's the pilot's that are violating the FAR by showing up to work unfit and fatigued that are the problem.:rolleyes:

Denny

Quote:

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1645700)

That's a misunderstanding on how ADG is applied. We really need the specific language in our hands to explain it fully but.. well... you know.

I agree, language will be critical on this one. I'll trust you know more than I on the subject than I, but I thought the point of an average daily guarantee was to cover pay for each calendar day regardless of the number of duty periods. I'll wait to see the final wording before judging, but allowing CDO's is a huge give...I hope we get something worthwhile.

If Delta can schedule CDOs, the 30 hour layovers (within 2 hours flight time) will go away. So, that makes the 4 day, 20 hour, 12 block, trip go to a hard time, 4 day worth 22 hours. Oh yeah, and your 30 hour layover went to 12.

10 CDOs pays 75 hrs. 3 per week for 3 weeks, with 1 left over. 14 days off per month.

The increase in to 5:15 per DP is nice, but it will kick in less because the trips will be more hard time.

Waiting for the language.

Oh, coming from an experienced CDOer here, they suck. If 117 guarantees that you must get the scheduled break, then they suck less. You just have to watch out for the definition of split duty. Those of you that know what a "PM day line" is know what I mean- the famous Danny Letter.

R1

Quote:

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1645679)

Any LAX 737 guys want to chime in here? :)

I'm not saying I like CDOs, just your logic is inconsistent.

Clamp,

I already did. And I also don't like the idea of CDOs and am also having trouble with some of the "anti-CDO" logic being presented.

So CDOs are bad because the Pilots who bid them are all staying up all day to get extra time at home and are showing up not properly rested????

First off we don't fly them yet so any posting about who will fly them and for what reason is highly speculative.

Secondly, that is also a pretty broad brush and pretty cynical. I don't want CDOs because I think they are a step backwards, but I am not willing to claim a whole bunch of my fellow Pilots will show up not rested. Sadly I think a few Pilots may push it, but don't you think those same guys are probably pushing it now?

As I have said 90% or more of the LAX redeyes are on the first leg of our trips. I normally avoid them but when I do fly them I try my best to show up well rested and believe my fellow pilots would do the same.

For the record - I am still against CDOs.

Scoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1645702)

The way it's phrased in the chairman's letter is that you can have a trip report at 10am also.

True.

Denny

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragtop Day (Post 1645706)

Absolutely agreed.

As much as I hate to admit it, it's really the only way out of all these ridiculous 30 hour layovers and killing ourselves on the day after the 30 hour layover.

I'm taking the same approach to this as I did C2012. I'll try to vote yes (or recommend my reps to vote yes-hopefully not the case) and do a full analysis. If I can't vote or recommend that and it needs to go back to process, it is what it is.

Most places I've prodded thus far, the deeper I go, I've actually been impressed in what they thought of and how outside the box they went in some cases (it appears to be that CROT approved for crew rest for the augments is lie flat only, for example).

I never expect to see a negotiation where there wasn't some tit for tat... that's just unrealistic. I do expect it to be largely positive in sum, though.

Ok. I just read the Chairmans letter. What's funny to me is that, unless I missed it in all the acronyms, it doesn't mention what the agreed upon solution is to what started this whole mess to begin with. Ie. When does a long call pilot have to acknowledge a trip. :confused:

If it's as everyone suggest's, and reserve pilots don't have to acknowledge trips, then why did we get all these "improvements?"

Ok, it's true. I'm being HIGHLY skeptical, but follow me.

On January 1st, the company and ALPA were at odds. Back then, the worst the company could do is allow pilots to acknowledge trips prior to 3 hours before report time, as opposed to what they wanted (10 hours).

Why is the company now allowing us to not to report at all and still giving us all this "stuff?" Am I to believe that we are going to get better than our original position without unnecessary givebacks?

From the company's standpoint, wouldn't they have done better if on January 1st, they had just said "Ok. You win. Acknowledgment 3 hours prior to report is just fine." and not given us these "improvements?"

To me it seems like I go into a car dealership and offer to pay $7,000 for a car that has a $10,000 price tag on it. Then the salesman counter-offers to sell it to me for $5,000 and a list of other things that have nothing to do with the car. I'd be skeptical that he didn't just take my $7,000. Wouldn't you?

Am I missing something?