Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-18-2014, 08:32 AM
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Sure, let's follow the money. Let's have a comparison between the results that DPA attorney managed at USAPA and what the namby,pamby DALPA was able to achieve. I mean USAPA let out press release after press release attacking their company and their management. They fought each other in court case after court case. They even launched not one, but two full page USA Today ads, which is the Hydrogen-Bomb Doomsday device of the webboard people like you.
Let's compare the results for their A-330 Captains and a Delta 767-400/A330 Captain, including merger stock and defined contributions.
So the LCC guys all followed the advice of you and Carl and the rest of the DPA crowd and what did it get them? They lost basically $80,000 per year in compensation compared to a Delta Captain. So, yes, please follow the money.
We will not even mention that US Air got out of bankruptcy 2 years before Delta did, and merged 3 years before Delta did, so they should have had a head start on restoring their pay and benefits.
This is where we have the conflict between rhetoric and results. You think the LCC guys are tough and strong because they attack management, they attack each other, and they generally foam at the mouth in an endless fashion.
Meanwhile, the weak, wimpy, mealy mouthed Delta pilot could have lived off the same take home pay as the LCC Captain and then paid off his house and his car with the extra money he got. What a tool, what a wimp, what an idiot. Didn't he know how making money is for fools and weaklings and that there is tremendous value in crapping on your management and each other 24/7?
Yes, we should all learn from this tremendous example of how to operate.
Let's compare the results for their A-330 Captains and a Delta 767-400/A330 Captain, including merger stock and defined contributions.
So the LCC guys all followed the advice of you and Carl and the rest of the DPA crowd and what did it get them? They lost basically $80,000 per year in compensation compared to a Delta Captain. So, yes, please follow the money.
We will not even mention that US Air got out of bankruptcy 2 years before Delta did, and merged 3 years before Delta did, so they should have had a head start on restoring their pay and benefits.
This is where we have the conflict between rhetoric and results. You think the LCC guys are tough and strong because they attack management, they attack each other, and they generally foam at the mouth in an endless fashion.
Meanwhile, the weak, wimpy, mealy mouthed Delta pilot could have lived off the same take home pay as the LCC Captain and then paid off his house and his car with the extra money he got. What a tool, what a wimp, what an idiot. Didn't he know how making money is for fools and weaklings and that there is tremendous value in crapping on your management and each other 24/7?
Yes, we should all learn from this tremendous example of how to operate.
08-18-2014, 08:41 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Mesabah
So, how come at Endeavor we follow the ALPA way, and we are really hurting? Or is every company situation different?
But... let's say that you choose a different path at Endeavor. What can you do that will garner a better position?
08-18-2014, 08:48 AM
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,870
Originally Posted by Alan Shore
Having finally read the article with the offending quotes, I have these observations (Caution!! Glass-is-half-full perspective ahead!!!):
“This is really a good story,” ALPA President Lee Moak said Tuesday during a visit to Bloomberg Businessweek in New York, part of a quick tour to assure Wall Street analysts that ALPA’s contract demands won’t prove onerous to airlines. "I almost can’t stand it, it’s so good."
The subject of the article is soaring airline profits. Moak says that he's so happy about profits these days that he "almost can't stand it." Given those profits' potential effects on our negotiating leverage, I find it hard to disagree.
Thanks to the profits, pilots now see themselves as collaborators with management—they increasingly lobby alongside airline executives in Washington. That, says Moak, deepens the working relationships. “All of a sudden, you find yourself on the same side of 95 percent of the issues,” he says.
I'm not sure I agree that we are on the same side of 95% of the issues, but we've certainly been lobbying Washington on some of the same subjects recently. To the extent that this makes us look more valuable in the eyes of management, I have to think that it can only help us at the table.
Delta says it paid nearly $92 million last year in similar (performance-based) incentives. “The employees are now coupled to the airlines,” says Moak, a Delta captain who is stepping down at year’s end after four years as president.
Presumably referring to profit sharing and our monthly goals payouts. The better the Company does, the better we do.
Moak contends that ALPA pilots at the larger carriers enjoy what he calls “mature, good contracts” already. Radical overhauls aren’t in the cards, he says.
I assume, although I do not know, that he is referring to the overall construct of our contract. There are many aspects of our contract that probably don't need much tweaking, leaving our NC able to focus more on simply raising value, e.g., pay rates, vacation pay, retirement, per diem, etc.
Most of the contract talks are likely to center on basic compensation—hourly pay rates and how much carriers pay into pilots’ retirement plans. “There will be a business discussion of pay as it relates to revenue,” Moak says. “You can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member,” but “you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts, he says.
No idea what the "$2 or $2.05" refers to. An earlier poster suggested that it may be our pilot CASM, which was 1.36 cents in 2013. (If that's the case, why the dollar sign in front of the number?)
With a 4% increase in 2014 (pay + 401(k)) and another 3% in 2015, that will take us to 1.46 cents. Taking that up to 2.05 cents would mean an increase of some 40% which, according to Jerry's calculation, would cost around $800M.
Given a projected profit this year of $4B, I would agree that this could be characterized as "working on the margins."
Again, this is my ever-optimistic possible interpretation of what I read in the article. YMMV...
“This is really a good story,” ALPA President Lee Moak said Tuesday during a visit to Bloomberg Businessweek in New York, part of a quick tour to assure Wall Street analysts that ALPA’s contract demands won’t prove onerous to airlines. "I almost can’t stand it, it’s so good."
The subject of the article is soaring airline profits. Moak says that he's so happy about profits these days that he "almost can't stand it." Given those profits' potential effects on our negotiating leverage, I find it hard to disagree.
Thanks to the profits, pilots now see themselves as collaborators with management—they increasingly lobby alongside airline executives in Washington. That, says Moak, deepens the working relationships. “All of a sudden, you find yourself on the same side of 95 percent of the issues,” he says.
I'm not sure I agree that we are on the same side of 95% of the issues, but we've certainly been lobbying Washington on some of the same subjects recently. To the extent that this makes us look more valuable in the eyes of management, I have to think that it can only help us at the table.
Delta says it paid nearly $92 million last year in similar (performance-based) incentives. “The employees are now coupled to the airlines,” says Moak, a Delta captain who is stepping down at year’s end after four years as president.
Presumably referring to profit sharing and our monthly goals payouts. The better the Company does, the better we do.
Moak contends that ALPA pilots at the larger carriers enjoy what he calls “mature, good contracts” already. Radical overhauls aren’t in the cards, he says.
I assume, although I do not know, that he is referring to the overall construct of our contract. There are many aspects of our contract that probably don't need much tweaking, leaving our NC able to focus more on simply raising value, e.g., pay rates, vacation pay, retirement, per diem, etc.
Most of the contract talks are likely to center on basic compensation—hourly pay rates and how much carriers pay into pilots’ retirement plans. “There will be a business discussion of pay as it relates to revenue,” Moak says. “You can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member,” but “you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts, he says.
No idea what the "$2 or $2.05" refers to. An earlier poster suggested that it may be our pilot CASM, which was 1.36 cents in 2013. (If that's the case, why the dollar sign in front of the number?)
With a 4% increase in 2014 (pay + 401(k)) and another 3% in 2015, that will take us to 1.46 cents. Taking that up to 2.05 cents would mean an increase of some 40% which, according to Jerry's calculation, would cost around $800M.
Given a projected profit this year of $4B, I would agree that this could be characterized as "working on the margins."
Again, this is my ever-optimistic possible interpretation of what I read in the article. YMMV...
Alan,
Kind of a surprising post from you. Normally you are much more factually and less interpretive. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinion as is every other poster.
I must say that the above post strikes me more as coming from a "90" full vice "glass is half full" perspective. It almost appears as if you are attempting to carry Moak's water here vice neutrally interpreting it.
I am not a big Moak supporter or detractor, he has done some good and some not so good.
My personal opinion on this whole interview is that Lee got a little carried away and clearly screwed up. He represents labor, for now at least. To the best of my memory he has no intention to ever run for ALPA National
. Lee obviously said some things that he shouldn't have. He is getting ahead of himself, he is not yet in his post ALPA Govt or Business position.Just put yourself in managements position. Do you thin think the result of this interview will be a higher or lower opener on C2015?
Scoop
08-18-2014, 09:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,276
Originally Posted by Scoop
Alan,
Kind of a surprising post from you. Normally you are much more factually and less interpretive. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinion as is every other poster.
I must say that the above post strikes me more as coming from a "90" full vice "glass is half full" perspective. It almost appears as if you are attempting to carry Moak's water here vice neutrally interpreting it.
I am not a big Moak supporter or detractor, he has done some good and some not so good.
My personal opinion on this whole interview is that Lee got a little carried away and clearly screwed up. He represents labor, for now at least. To the best of my memory he has no intention to ever run for ALPA National. Lee obviously said some things that he shouldn't have. He is getting ahead of himself, he is not yet in his post ALPA Govt or Business position.
Just put yourself in managements position. Do you thin think the result of this interview will be a higher or lower opener on C2015?
Scoop
Kind of a surprising post from you. Normally you are much more factually and less interpretive. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinion as is every other poster.
I must say that the above post strikes me more as coming from a "90" full vice "glass is half full" perspective. It almost appears as if you are attempting to carry Moak's water here vice neutrally interpreting it.
I am not a big Moak supporter or detractor, he has done some good and some not so good.
My personal opinion on this whole interview is that Lee got a little carried away and clearly screwed up. He represents labor, for now at least. To the best of my memory he has no intention to ever run for ALPA National
. Lee obviously said some things that he shouldn't have. He is getting ahead of himself, he is not yet in his post ALPA Govt or Business position.Just put yourself in managements position. Do you thin think the result of this interview will be a higher or lower opener on C2015?
Scoop
08-18-2014, 09:19 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
ALPA would never hack DPA's website because it is the greatest tool ALPA has to counter what miniscule amount of support they still have. As DPA has become more and more irrelevant their website rantings have become more and more unhinged. It is a virtual treasure trove of false and misleading statements that just destroys what little credibility the DPA leaders have left.
If anyone has any doubt what this lawsuit is about, just follow the money. The attorney for DPA is the same attorney who got fired at USAPA after running up millions in legal bills and never once negotiating even a single penny of pay raises for US Airways pilots. After milking that cow dry, he moves on to a new group of pilots who have felt the pain (as we all have) of a terrible decade in this industry and plays off their pain and insecurity.
So now DPA attorney finds a new group of pilots to suck money off of, and this lawsuit is just the vehicle for removing money from pilots wallets and putting it into the lawyer's boat payment. If there were any evidence that ALPA had anything to do with this, the DPA would have sued ALPA because they have money. Instead, they invent this John Doe case which is about to get blown out of the water, despite the stupid DPA rhetoric about a "great victory in court." Remember, their great victory was something that had already been offered by ALPA many times. ALPA was more than welcome to hand over any information they had as long as the pilot was protected from being publicly trashed by DPA before he had his day in court. (which will never come by the way, because DPA is about to get squashed). Gee, what a concept, a union that wants to protect their pilots instead of trying to publicly attack them.
Remember, this same DPA attorney filed a lawsuit against US Airways pilots under the RICO act; the same act that is for the Mafia and other organized crime. The lawsuit was dismissed, then filed again, then dismissed again. So DPA attorney gets millions in legal fees and the only thing the union accomplishes is to drag 18 union members into court and trash them. That is really what I think a union should do. Instead of negotiating for pay raises, they should just sue their own members to ensure that the attorneys make tons of money.
In my opinion, if you send money to DPA, you are being duped by a slick talking attorney who is firing up his shrinking base of support to give more money so it can all end up in his pocket. There is no one left who thinks DPA has any chance whatsoever to become the bargaining agent here so exactly what is their purpose other than to enrich the attorney.
If anyone has any doubt about what this lawsuit is about, follow the money. None of it will benefit one Delta pilot in any way. So who is really benefiting? Follow the money.
If anyone has any doubt what this lawsuit is about, just follow the money. The attorney for DPA is the same attorney who got fired at USAPA after running up millions in legal bills and never once negotiating even a single penny of pay raises for US Airways pilots. After milking that cow dry, he moves on to a new group of pilots who have felt the pain (as we all have) of a terrible decade in this industry and plays off their pain and insecurity.
So now DPA attorney finds a new group of pilots to suck money off of, and this lawsuit is just the vehicle for removing money from pilots wallets and putting it into the lawyer's boat payment. If there were any evidence that ALPA had anything to do with this, the DPA would have sued ALPA because they have money. Instead, they invent this John Doe case which is about to get blown out of the water, despite the stupid DPA rhetoric about a "great victory in court." Remember, their great victory was something that had already been offered by ALPA many times. ALPA was more than welcome to hand over any information they had as long as the pilot was protected from being publicly trashed by DPA before he had his day in court. (which will never come by the way, because DPA is about to get squashed). Gee, what a concept, a union that wants to protect their pilots instead of trying to publicly attack them.
Remember, this same DPA attorney filed a lawsuit against US Airways pilots under the RICO act; the same act that is for the Mafia and other organized crime. The lawsuit was dismissed, then filed again, then dismissed again. So DPA attorney gets millions in legal fees and the only thing the union accomplishes is to drag 18 union members into court and trash them. That is really what I think a union should do. Instead of negotiating for pay raises, they should just sue their own members to ensure that the attorneys make tons of money.
In my opinion, if you send money to DPA, you are being duped by a slick talking attorney who is firing up his shrinking base of support to give more money so it can all end up in his pocket. There is no one left who thinks DPA has any chance whatsoever to become the bargaining agent here so exactly what is their purpose other than to enrich the attorney.
If anyone has any doubt about what this lawsuit is about, follow the money. None of it will benefit one Delta pilot in any way. So who is really benefiting? Follow the money.
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Sure, let's follow the money. Let's have a comparison between the results that DPA attorney managed at USAPA and what the namby,pamby DALPA was able to achieve. I mean USAPA let out press release after press release attacking their company and their management. They fought each other in court case after court case. They even launched not one, but two full page USA Today ads, which is the Hydrogen-Bomb Doomsday device of the webboard people like you.
Let's compare the results for their A-330 Captains and a Delta 767-400/A330 Captain, including merger stock and defined contributions.
So the LCC guys all followed the advice of you and Carl and the rest of the DPA crowd and what did it get them? They lost basically $80,000 per year in compensation compared to a Delta Captain. So, yes, please follow the money.
We will not even mention that US Air got out of bankruptcy 2 years before Delta did, and merged 3 years before Delta did, so they should have had a head start on restoring their pay and benefits.
This is where we have the conflict between rhetoric and results. You think the LCC guys are tough and strong because they attack management, they attack each other, and they generally foam at the mouth in an endless fashion.
Meanwhile, the weak, wimpy, mealy mouthed Delta pilot could have lived off the same take home pay as the LCC Captain and then paid off his house and his car with the extra money he got. What a tool, what a wimp, what an idiot. Didn't he know how making money is for fools and weaklings and that there is tremendous value in crapping on your management and each other 24/7?
Yes, we should all learn from this tremendous example of how to operate.
Let's compare the results for their A-330 Captains and a Delta 767-400/A330 Captain, including merger stock and defined contributions.
So the LCC guys all followed the advice of you and Carl and the rest of the DPA crowd and what did it get them? They lost basically $80,000 per year in compensation compared to a Delta Captain. So, yes, please follow the money.
We will not even mention that US Air got out of bankruptcy 2 years before Delta did, and merged 3 years before Delta did, so they should have had a head start on restoring their pay and benefits.
This is where we have the conflict between rhetoric and results. You think the LCC guys are tough and strong because they attack management, they attack each other, and they generally foam at the mouth in an endless fashion.
Meanwhile, the weak, wimpy, mealy mouthed Delta pilot could have lived off the same take home pay as the LCC Captain and then paid off his house and his car with the extra money he got. What a tool, what a wimp, what an idiot. Didn't he know how making money is for fools and weaklings and that there is tremendous value in crapping on your management and each other 24/7?
Yes, we should all learn from this tremendous example of how to operate.
Excellent posts.
08-18-2014, 09:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by Scoop
I must say that the above post strikes me more as coming from a "90" full vice "glass is half full" perspective. It almost appears as if you are attempting to carry Moak's water here vice neutrally interpreting it.
Originally Posted by Scoop
I am not a big Moak supporter or detractor, he has done some good and some not so good.
Originally Posted by Scoop
Just put yourself in managements position. Do you thin think the result of this interview will be a higher or lower opener on C2015?
08-18-2014, 09:23 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by tsquare
Excellent comparison. But you do know it will fall on eyes that choose not to see. Eyes that would be much happier just to have the satisfaction of punching the company in the mouth, even if the blowback is far more damaging to themselves.
Originally Posted by tsquare
I'd much rather drive an Alfa Romeo than drink a glass of purple drank anyday. 
Originally Posted by tsquare
You know the other thing you could have done would have been to show a ROIC on that $80,000/year at a meager return of 5%/year... compounded... and just how much more THAT would have been. But I'm sorry, I forget, time/value of that money is mythical. nevermind. (It would have yielded an additional $144K... if my math is right)
I'd like to see a chart showing the time value of the approximately $100K per Delta pilot that I figure we've contributed PER YEAR for the past 10 years to Delta's recovery. On the surface that's only $1 million each. Do the time value of money calculation, and it's significantly more.
And nobody I know of (including me) is suggesting we be paid back for that. My belief is simply that concessions (the reduced value for our profession and our careers) are no longer warranted or needed now that our company is out of the woods, the industry has been restructured in a way that should facilitate more consistent profits and less dramatic cycles, and our company is making record profits in the billions. $1 million (or more if you look at TVM) is a pretty generous contribution to help your company get through a financial crisis, don't you think? Now, that's water under the bridge and it's time to make it right going forward. I sure wish we had someone representing us that was advocating such, instead of the Lee Moak's of the world trying to rationalize it and acting like we don't expect restoration.
08-18-2014, 09:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
No, I don't. What the heck are you talking about? 
08-18-2014, 09:28 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
OK, guys. Problem solved! 3bil said it didn't happen. Clearly, he knows best. Someone please tell the judge.
08-18-2014, 09:34 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Scoop
Just put yourself in managements position. Do you thin think the result of this interview will be a higher or lower opener on C2015?
Scoop
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