Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-18-2014 | 09:19 AM
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From: B757/767
ALPA would never hack DPA's website because it is the greatest tool ALPA has to counter what miniscule amount of support they still have. As DPA has become more and more irrelevant their website rantings have become more and more unhinged. It is a virtual treasure trove of false and misleading statements that just destroys what little credibility the DPA leaders have left.
If anyone has any doubt what this lawsuit is about, just follow the money. The attorney for DPA is the same attorney who got fired at USAPA after running up millions in legal bills and never once negotiating even a single penny of pay raises for US Airways pilots. After milking that cow dry, he moves on to a new group of pilots who have felt the pain (as we all have) of a terrible decade in this industry and plays off their pain and insecurity.
So now DPA attorney finds a new group of pilots to suck money off of, and this lawsuit is just the vehicle for removing money from pilots wallets and putting it into the lawyer's boat payment. If there were any evidence that ALPA had anything to do with this, the DPA would have sued ALPA because they have money. Instead, they invent this John Doe case which is about to get blown out of the water, despite the stupid DPA rhetoric about a "great victory in court." Remember, their great victory was something that had already been offered by ALPA many times. ALPA was more than welcome to hand over any information they had as long as the pilot was protected from being publicly trashed by DPA before he had his day in court. (which will never come by the way, because DPA is about to get squashed). Gee, what a concept, a union that wants to protect their pilots instead of trying to publicly attack them.
Remember, this same DPA attorney filed a lawsuit against US Airways pilots under the RICO act; the same act that is for the Mafia and other organized crime. The lawsuit was dismissed, then filed again, then dismissed again. So DPA attorney gets millions in legal fees and the only thing the union accomplishes is to drag 18 union members into court and trash them. That is really what I think a union should do. Instead of negotiating for pay raises, they should just sue their own members to ensure that the attorneys make tons of money.
In my opinion, if you send money to DPA, you are being duped by a slick talking attorney who is firing up his shrinking base of support to give more money so it can all end up in his pocket. There is no one left who thinks DPA has any chance whatsoever to become the bargaining agent here so exactly what is their purpose other than to enrich the attorney.
If anyone has any doubt about what this lawsuit is about, follow the money. None of it will benefit one Delta pilot in any way. So who is really benefiting? Follow the money.
If anyone has any doubt what this lawsuit is about, just follow the money. The attorney for DPA is the same attorney who got fired at USAPA after running up millions in legal bills and never once negotiating even a single penny of pay raises for US Airways pilots. After milking that cow dry, he moves on to a new group of pilots who have felt the pain (as we all have) of a terrible decade in this industry and plays off their pain and insecurity.
So now DPA attorney finds a new group of pilots to suck money off of, and this lawsuit is just the vehicle for removing money from pilots wallets and putting it into the lawyer's boat payment. If there were any evidence that ALPA had anything to do with this, the DPA would have sued ALPA because they have money. Instead, they invent this John Doe case which is about to get blown out of the water, despite the stupid DPA rhetoric about a "great victory in court." Remember, their great victory was something that had already been offered by ALPA many times. ALPA was more than welcome to hand over any information they had as long as the pilot was protected from being publicly trashed by DPA before he had his day in court. (which will never come by the way, because DPA is about to get squashed). Gee, what a concept, a union that wants to protect their pilots instead of trying to publicly attack them.
Remember, this same DPA attorney filed a lawsuit against US Airways pilots under the RICO act; the same act that is for the Mafia and other organized crime. The lawsuit was dismissed, then filed again, then dismissed again. So DPA attorney gets millions in legal fees and the only thing the union accomplishes is to drag 18 union members into court and trash them. That is really what I think a union should do. Instead of negotiating for pay raises, they should just sue their own members to ensure that the attorneys make tons of money.
In my opinion, if you send money to DPA, you are being duped by a slick talking attorney who is firing up his shrinking base of support to give more money so it can all end up in his pocket. There is no one left who thinks DPA has any chance whatsoever to become the bargaining agent here so exactly what is their purpose other than to enrich the attorney.
If anyone has any doubt about what this lawsuit is about, follow the money. None of it will benefit one Delta pilot in any way. So who is really benefiting? Follow the money.
Sure, let's follow the money. Let's have a comparison between the results that DPA attorney managed at USAPA and what the namby,pamby DALPA was able to achieve. I mean USAPA let out press release after press release attacking their company and their management. They fought each other in court case after court case. They even launched not one, but two full page USA Today ads, which is the Hydrogen-Bomb Doomsday device of the webboard people like you.
Let's compare the results for their A-330 Captains and a Delta 767-400/A330 Captain, including merger stock and defined contributions.
So the LCC guys all followed the advice of you and Carl and the rest of the DPA crowd and what did it get them? They lost basically $80,000 per year in compensation compared to a Delta Captain. So, yes, please follow the money.
We will not even mention that US Air got out of bankruptcy 2 years before Delta did, and merged 3 years before Delta did, so they should have had a head start on restoring their pay and benefits.
This is where we have the conflict between rhetoric and results. You think the LCC guys are tough and strong because they attack management, they attack each other, and they generally foam at the mouth in an endless fashion.
Meanwhile, the weak, wimpy, mealy mouthed Delta pilot could have lived off the same take home pay as the LCC Captain and then paid off his house and his car with the extra money he got. What a tool, what a wimp, what an idiot. Didn't he know how making money is for fools and weaklings and that there is tremendous value in crapping on your management and each other 24/7?
Yes, we should all learn from this tremendous example of how to operate.
Let's compare the results for their A-330 Captains and a Delta 767-400/A330 Captain, including merger stock and defined contributions.
So the LCC guys all followed the advice of you and Carl and the rest of the DPA crowd and what did it get them? They lost basically $80,000 per year in compensation compared to a Delta Captain. So, yes, please follow the money.
We will not even mention that US Air got out of bankruptcy 2 years before Delta did, and merged 3 years before Delta did, so they should have had a head start on restoring their pay and benefits.
This is where we have the conflict between rhetoric and results. You think the LCC guys are tough and strong because they attack management, they attack each other, and they generally foam at the mouth in an endless fashion.
Meanwhile, the weak, wimpy, mealy mouthed Delta pilot could have lived off the same take home pay as the LCC Captain and then paid off his house and his car with the extra money he got. What a tool, what a wimp, what an idiot. Didn't he know how making money is for fools and weaklings and that there is tremendous value in crapping on your management and each other 24/7?
Yes, we should all learn from this tremendous example of how to operate.
Excellent posts.
08-18-2014 | 09:23 AM
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I don't see it making a bit of difference, quietly honestly. As he's not running again, he will likely have no official position with ALPA and therefore little influence over the MEC.
08-18-2014 | 09:23 AM
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
You know the other thing you could have done would have been to show a ROIC on that $80,000/year at a meager return of 5%/year... compounded... and just how much more THAT would have been. But I'm sorry, I forget, time/value of that money is mythical. nevermind. (It would have yielded an additional $144K... if my math is right)
I'd like to see a chart showing the time value of the approximately $100K per Delta pilot that I figure we've contributed PER YEAR for the past 10 years to Delta's recovery. On the surface that's only $1 million each. Do the time value of money calculation, and it's significantly more.
And nobody I know of (including me) is suggesting we be paid back for that. My belief is simply that concessions (the reduced value for our profession and our careers) are no longer warranted or needed now that our company is out of the woods, the industry has been restructured in a way that should facilitate more consistent profits and less dramatic cycles, and our company is making record profits in the billions. $1 million (or more if you look at TVM) is a pretty generous contribution to help your company get through a financial crisis, don't you think? Now, that's water under the bridge and it's time to make it right going forward. I sure wish we had someone representing us that was advocating such, instead of the Lee Moak's of the world trying to rationalize it and acting like we don't expect restoration.
08-18-2014 | 09:27 AM
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Don't you remember? It was a couple of months ago. Delta put out some sort of infomercial saying that its non-union employees were back to what they were making prior to BK. A number of posters here (you included, as I recall) read that to mean that they were back to what they were making before the pay cuts began in 2001. Meanwhile, I was trying to point out that Lee had made a similarly meaningless statement with respect to our pay.
08-18-2014 | 09:28 AM
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From: B757/767
What the heck are you talking about? I don't need to say it didn't happen. DPA needs to prove that it DID happen. Their progress thus far speaks volumes, but hey....PD says it did happen so that clearly ends it. Keep hanging on to that hope PD.
08-18-2014 | 09:34 AM
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From: 767er Captain
I'm not sure it is necessarily all that relevant. I would think management will be much more interested in what Captain Donatelli says.
08-18-2014 | 09:35 AM
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From: B757/767
If you actually became involved, you'd find out how incorrect you are. The careers that have been saved. The lives that have been saved. It's sad that you don't even know.
08-18-2014 | 09:38 AM
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If you're management, and you see quotes from the President of our union (and former Chairman of our MEC, who most certainly has close ties to our current MEC folks) that tout how great things are now and how reasonable we plan to be going forward... you KNOW your expectations are that "labor risk" is pretty much off the table (seems I saw a quote like that somewhere
) and pilot costs are not going to increase significantly. Therefore, you're more likely to believe a lower opening position can result in a lower end result cost increase. That's just common sense and basic human behavior.Now, I realize you have rationalized his quotes and put a positive spin on it. But surely you can see how those same quotes can be taken the way they sound... the way most of us read them.
Heck, even Moak seems to recognize how it sounds since he's privately claiming to have been misquoted. And then there's the whole issue of my ATL reps, who were very clear in their support of what he said in those quotes. So which is it? Are the quotes okay or not? My reps say yes. You say yes. Moak says no. Quite the conundrum, don't you think?
Last edited by DAL 88 Driver; 08-18-2014 at 09:50 AM.
08-18-2014 | 09:49 AM
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Don't you remember? It was a couple of months ago. Delta put out some sort of infomercial saying that its non-union employees were back to what they were making prior to BK. A number of posters here (you included, as I recall) read that to mean that they were back to what they were making before the pay cuts began in 2001. Meanwhile, I was trying to point out that Lee had made a similarly meaningless statement with respect to our pay.
As I recall, the rest of the employees didn't take anything like a 32.5% pay cut prior to BK. For them to get back to their "pre-BK" pay would be significant restoration... for them. For us to get back to our "pre-BK" pay is extremely little progress toward restoration. In fact, we're still not even there yet. In terms of buying power, our pay rates are currently at a 34% pay cut. In actual numbers, it's something around a 20% pay cut.
How do the other employees compare? I don't know exactly, and I don't really care.
08-18-2014 | 09:52 AM
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If you're management, and you see quotes from the President of our union...that tout how great things are now and how reasonable we plan to be going forward... you KNOW your expectations are that "labor risk" is pretty much off the table...and pilot costs are not going to increase significantly.
Heck, even Moak seems to recognize how it sounds since he's privately claiming to have been misquoted. And there's the whole issue of my ATL reps, who were very clear in their support of what he said in those quotes. So which is it? Are the quotes okay or not? My reps say yes. Moak says no.
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