Originally Posted by MoonShot

Probably because we have an older pilot group that thinks that they won't be around to deal with the consequences of scope (probably true). They want their pay and retirement before they exit.

Originally Posted by tsquare

I think what it more correctly shows is that surveys are not a representative sampling of the group in a true statistical sense. The more I have thought about this the more I believe that a scientific poll would garner a better representation of the group's real wants/needs/desires. Think about it. The people that fill out surveys are probably more passionate about some issue, whatever that is, and they want to make sure they are "heard". The vast majority of those that don't fill out the survey are probably pretty happy letting the representative government take care of it. I am not saying that a survey doesn't have value, just that it is not scientific, and therefore not a true statistical representation of the group.

Or maybe the truth is that scope just ain't that important. Still want the surveys released?

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano

Rhetorical questions:

1) Why would a union not have the goal of achieving the best contract possible for its members, given that it's income is derived from dues?

2) What evidence is there that ALPA is not complying with the above, given the negotiating climate (our peer set?)

Originally Posted by hornetsnest

You mean like 5:15 daily guarantee and reserves paying the same as regular? Looks like maybe half that list has been accomplished by DALPA already. Restore international pay? What does that even mean? Get "certain" wide body flying back? Not all of it?

Jerry has been pushing the value of the DPA surveys. Jerry has been the only one running around here and on Chitchat with his hair on fire saying that pay banding is a done deal and the DPA survey has said the pilots want pay banding. He's written a number of the DPA emails. Does he support the DPA's survey stating that pilots want pay banding because it helps training?

You can't have it both ways. If Delta does read everything then they know that the DPA pilots in 2003 whoever they were at the time actually wanted pay banding and it even says in the survey results that it to help out training. Isn't that what everyone is pi$$ed off about right now? Massive training issues? Everyone keeps saying how the DPA is causing DALPA to do things. DPA is responsible for the results. Well here's one that Jerry says is a done deal and low and eff'in behold the DPA says the Delta pilots wanted it in the next contract.

Do DPA/Independant public surveys mean anything or not? You can't have it both ways.

Originally Posted by scambo1

In answer to number 1 which you'd think was rhetorical...IMO, ALPA is made aware of corporate plans ahead of the market or pilot group. They partner with these plans in an effort to help them become reality (717) using a cost/ benefit analysis. They attempt to help implement these plans while keeping the real info shrouded.

Originally Posted by PilotFrog

Even with over 700 responses, Scope is STILL behind pay, retirement and work rules.

Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL

Wow. So the Negotiators negotiate based on the DPA survey results? Never to early too start looking for scapegoats for failing to deliver.

Originally Posted by tsquare

So everybody is leaving in the next year or two and won't have to deal with scope issues? The average age is something like 55. That is 10 full years, and unless we get stupid in contract negotiations, 2 and possibly 3 more contracts under which they live. Doesn't sound rational to me.... Maybe it just isn't as important to most people as some think it is...

Originally Posted by shiznit

I didn't read his comment the same way, but eh, different strokes for different folks.

I see the DPA attempting to negotiate in public, which is what every union (and most pilots) hate when management attempts it. It is a massive failure of TC/DPA to undermine himself and every Delta pilot who seeks the maximum gains out of the next round of PWA talks. TC/DPA's shenanigans are doing more damage every single day.

The more detailed a gauge of the pilot sentiment management has, the more costly they can make contract improvements. The opponent is management, not ALPA.

Say no to doing the DPA survey, and tell your fellow Delta pilots to say no!