Both sides published openers for C2K, and I think the same was true for the 1113 proceedings. Regardless, we can ask our reps after openers are exchanged. I just think we're chronologically and philosophically challenged, when we anticipate their needs. Thankfully, APC isn't much of a statistically significant tool, otherwise what we're doing right now is negotiating against ourselves.

"My sources" are the executive management team that runs the airline. They're the ones that stated our contract was cost neutral. Now you're trying to conflate oil refinery and fuel hedging prowess with accurately portraying the net cost gain of a pilot contract? You're saying that if you don't have commodity trading prowess, you can't do math?

Everyone knows that. Well, did you know that playing cards with Kenny Rogers gets old really fast? ;)

When you negotiate a contract, you develop and agree to costing sheets that put a financial price on every contractual item. Both sides have those sheets. Neither side will release them. Management has done the math from the agreed to costing sheets and stated that our contract is cost neutral.

It still amazes me how hard some of you guys still fight against that statement, and changing the subject seems to be your chief method of response.

Carl

Carl,

Not necessarily. If money is saved from another part of the operation and applied to pilot pay, the net number may be "cost neutral" but to we pilots, it is a gain. In the case of C2012 management reported savings from up gauging the operation and saving on maintenance expense.

ALPA, generally, tries to stay away from forward-looking projections and stick to real, after the fact, measured results. You can tell us how your pay has worked out since C2012. My Delta W2 delta between years has been (without changing equipment or bidding status):

2011 - Baseline
2012 - 4%
2013 - 27.5%
2014 - 80%

Frankly; when I just ran these numbers they surprised me (income from other jobs outside of Delta has declined, offsetting gains). My best guess is the other factors involved are longevity bumps and the ability to pick up a green slip every other month or so. Because of my other hobbies, I never get more than a one or two-day greenie. All in I fly+credit between 75 and 95 a month.

Contract 2012's scope was a very definite improvement for the pilots which could be reported to investors as "cost neutral" or perhaps even accretive to the Company's bottom line. Using unit cost analysis, flying a passenger on a 717 may be more efficient to Delta than an old CRJ with a topped out crew, but for the new 717 Captain at Delta going to nearly $200 an hour is usually a big raise.

Not sure who you mean by "you guys." You and I are both Delta pilots. I voted against C2012, but with the clarity of 20/20 hindsight it worked well. C2012 was certainly preferable to stagnation.

Continued up gauging will benefit both the pilots and Delta. I get the feeling (subjectively) that the push for C2015 is going to be improvements that you feel more on your end of the seniority list (which will benefit all of us).

We also had Pro and Con papers for C2000 which I thought were great. It would be great to see them again although I am not holding my breath. :cool:

Scoop

Let's not forget the $2.75 BILLION in investor returns.

No need to solve the company's problems.

Delta Current Fleet Plan
 

Looks pretty good. :)

Mainline up 100 aircraft! Straight math based on a current Pilot count of 12,000 would require about 1500 more Pilots. Thats 500 Pilots per year for growth plus retirements.

Scoop

Don't know what happened to the format - it lined up right until the time I hit save.



Delta Fleet Size as of Projected Fleet Size
January 9, 2015 in 2018

Domestic 630 Domestic 718
Transoceanic 142 Transoceanic 154
Total Main Line 772 Total Main Line 872

Regional 499 Regional 420
Total Aircraft 1,271 Total Aircraft 1292

For Denny...

But for C2012?

So you want to wait for something that isn't going to happen to happen before we talk about pros and cons of certain concepts?

If APC isn't a statistically significant tool and not causing the pilot group to negotiate against itself, then why can't we talk here about the contract again?

In C12, it was widely reported that the company opened with 0% raises. The company came to ALPA to get an early deal, but offered 0%! Yet ALPA didn't walk out.

If the company brings any sort of insulting nonsense like that this time, after publicly yearning for an early deal, I hope ALPA has the stores (and common sense) to walk away for a good while.

I do too. We can afford to wait with profit sharing. It's variable income and it looks like it's increasing significantly right now.