Good point on the training/fleet productivity, btw.

The GS example was NYC 7ER F/O over Memorial Day. We can do a post mortum and review that logic in two weeks. Were you a NYC 7ER F/O when you missed out on a GS. I've seen them going to OOB GS and IA in that category consistently for the last few weeks. My point is we are in an advantageous position and shouldn't jump at the first thing that looks marginally OK. We can survive a protracted negotiation especially with 3B4 to help keep us on par with AA and UAL. Do you know how much of a pay raise that triggers based on AA and UAL average 757 pay? I haven't done the math, but it helps.

My point on SWA, UPS and FDX is that over the long term a little persistence and patience will be rewarded. They are in a drawn out situation temporarily, but are winning long term. We need the same long term focus. Jumping on these single digit pay raises while giving away our careers is killing us. The JV alone will keep many of us in lower paying categories for longer periods of time. If we had the same pay rates with improved scope, there would be a larger mix of pilots getting widebody pay rates.

The TA process can be uncomfortable, but as a group I believe we have the strength and fortitude to endure a little uncertainty and discomfort while working toward our goal of an industry leading contract. I would love a quick deal, but only on terms that make sense for the pilot group. I'm optimistic we can get a good TA, but would hope everyone is prepared to be patient if the first one we are presented doesn't meet our standards.

I think your logic on rushing is valid, except that the discussion about 3B4 on the other thread doesn't seem to suggest a it's the hammer we might hope. PS might be more relevant?

I haven't read any convincing explanation yet as to why this needs to move so fast, but obviously there is some leverage in delivering it. The value of waiting isn't real clear, but it looks pretty good, so a deal has to be right.

thats pretty harsh, hes new and made a mistake so cut him some slack. it doesnt excuse his willingess to settle for less than what we are worth tho

I don't have any "management connections"(can't speak for any of the others you mention), but I do know who to go to in DALPA to find accurate answers.

Management = DALPA

When you're doing a contract comparison, profit sharing is part of Section 3 Compensation. The problem with trying to compare it is the fact that you can't predict it in future years. 50% profit sharing on zero profits is still zero. You can compare PS percentages I guess, but it doesn't tell the compensation story very well. Pay rates are probably the best way. See my table below.

Sick leave is the one I couldn't decide on when I built the table below. That's because one airline's method may not be preferred because of personal situations. I personally don't like our system at all, but that's just me.

Agree completely.

You missed the most important hypothetical question. How much of your airline's flying do your pilots perform?

Carl

You think that's harsh? It's honest.

Carl..
Just wondering what you don't like about your sick leave policy?
I'll add that at UAL, we get 60hrs of sick leave a year. As you can imagine, building up a nest egg for that heart attack, busted leg or anything else that will happen as you get older.. is pretty tough.

As far as PS is concerned, you're 100% right- how do you compare percentages between companies? I was always under the assumption that your PS was a result of management giving you something in return for your lost pensions.
Again, your PS for this year blew us away! We ended up with less than a months pay, didn't you guys get close to 2 months?

But again, what you guys have is definitely at the top of the pyramid and I hope you can keep it that way. Giving up any PS to fund any increases in payrates is a tough call. But there are two ways to look at it. One would be that by doing so, you guarantee your pay without having to worry about future profits~
The other is.. if the trend continues and Delta is actually forecast to continue to make record profits, then your PS check will be at record amounts!
Tough call.

As far as the last point you made is concerned-
Yupe, JV and Scope are important. But at what price and for who?
The problem has always been that certain groups don't want to give up anything to fix the problems that those in the past created.
Do you secure lower raises for your WideBodies, in return.. bring more international flying inhouse and close the JV loophole?
Do you lower 1st and 2nd year pay to capture more RJ flying?

I don't have the answers to these questions, but I know that living in the real world means looking at what others are doing and as I said before- I don't think that the AA guys did anyone a favor with their contract.
I just hope that you guys don't give up anything with regards to your PS, and that you can make gains in your payrates and workrules.

Good Luck~
Motch

It's a perfect analogy, and you unwittingly prove the point about being ruled by fear of the unknown. To you and so many like you, anything that you can get now is better than that awful fear of the unknown.

How incredibly disingenuous. None of the things you list equals saying NO to management. It's hard to believe you would equate the negotiating committee meeting with the MEC as saying NO to management. Wow.

If you say so shiznit. I just can't imagine you ever voting NO to anything. You're far too motivated by fear.

Carl