As I see it, We get JAL, Open Skies is a go, if not it will have to go back to the drawing board.

I know the quota is four, and that is for all US airlines. My curiosity lies in the probability that we may "use" some JAL slots in to Haneda under a long term, binding agreements. (until amendments of the Open Skies Accord can be modified) Just a shot to left field, but I cannot see DAL doing a deal that is very one sided, even if they get a decent cut of the money. Without protections et al, it would allow JAL to switch sides again, and truly leave DAL's fanny in the wind.

While this may very well be true, it would be interesting to see a comparison as to how that money was distributed. At the risk of sounding like an obama progressive, I'm betting that the biggest chunk of that money went to a smaller number of guys mostly clustered at the top of each category. Being that I am now and for a long time will be a junior puke, I'm not so sure that I wouldn't prefer the NWA way... 'cause it IS all about me... :cool::D

I think more important then if we get JAL or not is what happens to the economy in the far east. At the moment its horrible and yields are off far more there then anywhere else in the world. No one is making money there. If there is not a turnaround fast Delta is going to be forced into a major pullout and possible drop the Narita hub. If that happens we lose a lot of jobs. The entire Narita hub is now on the chopping block. A repeat of the Frankfurt hub debacle is now a real possiblility absent a strong return in yields.

Thank you for the fear mongering talking points. Big difference between NRT and FRA. We must have JAL and what ever deal we get or be scared, very, very scared. :eek: Why did DAL and NWA merge? It wasn't for FAR and FNT. Do you think RA didn't anticipate the results of the already underway global economic downturn when we merged?

The true FRA story:

There are some similarities but many differences in comparing FRA and NRT. First off, part of Pan Am's success with the Frankfurt hub was the IGS (internal German service) operation to West Berlin. That flying was split by the Allied Powers, and Pan Am was the designated US carrier, so this helped feed its operation in Frankfurt which was really supporting flights to major US cities and had some beyond flying rights (Cairo, Karachi, Bombay) but they were not unlimited like NRT. TWA also had some limited beyond rights as well. That IGS operation was sold to Lufthansa around the reunification of Germany in 1989 just prior to the DAL purchase of PAA Atlantic operation. The sale placed a large hole in the PAA revenue generation from FRA as the IGS was a very profitable venue. In truth DAL purchased something for greater than its value, when this became clear FRA was shutdown.

Second and a more significant difference is that in Europe we are dealing with many different countries acting as one nation through the EU. In Japan we are allowed to serve other countries through a combination of the 'beyond rights' and our respective agreements with the 3rd nation (ie we fly SFO - NRT - SIN, we have an Open skies agreement with Singapore and 'beyond rights' with Japan allowing us to sell local traffic between NRT - SIN). If you were to apply this to JFK-FRA-FCO, the FRA-FCO would be continuing service because selling traffic on that segment would be considered 'cabotage' to the EU nations. This would place an even greater drain on revenue generation.

As you can see comparing FRA to NRT would simply be comparing apples to oranges.

Don't let the fact confuse your agenda :rolleyes:

I agree with that assessment for the most part. Due to the nature and value of the Fifth Freedom Rights absent a Open-Skies Agreement that is ratified buy both governments, we need to do everything we can to keep that hub operational. JAL is key to flow to our flights. It offers more insulation. Also failing in NRT also will cause a need to restructure debt that was very trying to refinance.

ACL,
You do realize that the SLOT VALUE can be maintained IF transferred to a JV partner (JAL). The routes are being flown, AND you are getting revenue. If the value has been maintained, then the loans are not in jeopardy of being devalued and being subject to more money being injected to satisfy the bankers.

That is the fear of almost every DAL pilot that is paying attention to this venture.

Given the overlap between our Boards of Directors, yes, I think they say NWA's route structure was eroding. At the same time I think they saw Delta needing airplanes that they could not afford, along with a lot of debt. Marriage made in heaven, assembled in Minneapolis, planted in Atlanta. We are the children of our parents four, or fifth marriage, and both parents are looking for work. Hey at least it isn't Haiti and our parents were good looking.

Kinda amazing how rumors of hiring and two Asian bases evaporated into "run for your lives." Instead, a more moderate approach is called for. It is never as bad, or as good, as people make out in this business.

In the mean time I need to lose ten pounds and learn more music from the last decade to prepare for my backup, backup, gig. ACL65's got percussion. I was hoping to get him in a band in the islands. A beat box is a whole lot easier to transport than a full trap kit and PA.

Utter nonsense. You have no evidence of anything that you've just said.

This is you returning to the slamming of all things NWA. In the world of sailingfun, the following items are the worst things any airline could ever be saddled with:

Asia routes
747's
787's
A330's
DC-9's
757's (if they've ever had a red tail).
DTW base
MEM base
SEA base
MSP base
Any pilot who is not originally hired by Delta Air Lines

You continue to underwhelm.

Carl

Carl - don't be so hard on yourself. We like the 757's, as long as they can be modified with winglets and reasonably sized ACARS printers.

So anyone know when FedEx is going to start pulling pilots out of their pool?