Originally Posted by alfaromeo

Every time we get into contract negotiations, some buttwipe from corporate communications will issue a press release basically saying that all pilots make a million dollars an hour and only work one day a month. When a typical pilot reads this press release he:

A. Starts crying to his mommy and capitulates immediately
B. Gets more upset and hardens his stance against the company

I mention this only to illustrate that trying to embarrass people in public rarely is successful in changing their mind and almost always will have the opposite effect than is intended.

This leads us to the conflict between the real world populated by adults and by the temper tantrum throwing webboard crowd that more than anything want to emote their feelings in public. (doesn't Dr. Phil have a show for that? Oprah?) In the real world, if you are trying to influence people you have adopt a strategy that will actually work, rather than one that just allows you to emote. Now we all know that throwing a public tantrum is quite satisfying for a few minutes, and for the most ignorant among us it will satisfy their needs totally, but if you embarrass people in public, you better have some other leverage to affect them or you better just go home and quit trying. In the case of a government agency, you have no leverage other than to use the power of persuasion and influence to try to get them to amend their decisions. Once you blow them up in public you might as well talk to the wall.

So we have unions like USAPA, that is considered a giant joke by everyone except themselves, that is able to blow up the TSA in public and then they get to go home because they no longer have any influence at all. Yippee for them, the webboard crowd goes crazy with applause.

Now back to the real world that is populated by adults. If you want to retain influence, you have to avoid the cheap and easy route that is used by USAPA, and you have to continue to try to stay in the game. That means you do not get to trash people in public you have to try to work through the system. That is what ALPA is doing in this issue with the scanners and that is what they have been doing for years. As the only representative of pilots that has any real influence in Washington, they have to act like adults and let the children have their tantrums and walk away.

In the case of Crew Pass, it was ALPA that introduced legislation mandating that the TSA conduct real world tests of the Crew Pass system. It was ALPA that set up the Crew Pass system tests. When the one vendor chosen for the system tests tried to jack up their prices thinking they had a monopoly, it was ALPA that sponsored a vendors conference to force competition in the system and lowered the price by over 20 fold. Now ALPA has gotten the TSA to approve system wide implementation of Crew Pass, and it is now on ALPA's shoulders to find a way to fund it. Where has USAPA, APA, SWAPA, IBT, and the rest been in all of this? AWOL. It is amazing that the only union that has done anything at all on this issue is now tarred because they don't decide to throw a baby temper tantrum and derail the whole process. Really, are you guys in kindergarten or did you actually graduate from college? Sometimes, the brainlessness exhibited here amazes me.

Once again, I write this not to debate the few children that populate this board but the normal thinking adults and those that may come here to read and never post.

Originally Posted by sinca3

1) Minority
2) Ex DAL employee
3) Intern
4) Women in aviation...the 69's or something like that
5) Hiring dept of old airline, therefore buddy buddy with DAL hiring peps
6) Some real good connections....

just to name a few!!

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

Every time we get into contract negotiations, some buttwipe from corporate communications will issue a press release basically saying that all pilots make a million dollars an hour and only work one day a month. When a typical pilot reads this press release he:

A. Starts crying to his mommy and capitulates immediately
B. Gets more upset and hardens his stance against the company

I mention this only to illustrate that trying to embarrass people in public rarely is successful in changing their mind and almost always will have the opposite effect than is intended.

This leads us to the conflict between the real world populated by adults and by the temper tantrum throwing webboard crowd that more than anything want to emote their feelings in public. (doesn't Dr. Phil have a show for that? Oprah?) In the real world, if you are trying to influence people you have adopt a strategy that will actually work, rather than one that just allows you to emote. Now we all know that throwing a public tantrum is quite satisfying for a few minutes, and for the most ignorant among us it will satisfy their needs totally, but if you embarrass people in public, you better have some other leverage to affect them or you better just go home and quit trying. In the case of a government agency, you have no leverage other than to use the power of persuasion and influence to try to get them to amend their decisions. Once you blow them up in public you might as well talk to the wall.

So we have unions like USAPA, that is considered a giant joke by everyone except themselves, that is able to blow up the TSA in public and then they get to go home because they no longer have any influence at all. Yippee for them, the webboard crowd goes crazy with applause.

Now back to the real world that is populated by adults. If you want to retain influence, you have to avoid the cheap and easy route that is used by USAPA, and you have to continue to try to stay in the game. That means you do not get to trash people in public you have to try to work through the system. That is what ALPA is doing in this issue with the scanners and that is what they have been doing for years. As the only representative of pilots that has any real influence in Washington, they have to act like adults and let the children have their tantrums and walk away.

In the case of Crew Pass, it was ALPA that introduced legislation mandating that the TSA conduct real world tests of the Crew Pass system. It was ALPA that set up the Crew Pass system tests. When the one vendor chosen for the system tests tried to jack up their prices thinking they had a monopoly, it was ALPA that sponsored a vendors conference to force competition in the system and lowered the price by over 20 fold. Now ALPA has gotten the TSA to approve system wide implementation of Crew Pass, and it is now on ALPA's shoulders to find a way to fund it. Where has USAPA, APA, SWAPA, IBT, and the rest been in all of this? AWOL. It is amazing that the only union that has done anything at all on this issue is now tarred because they don't decide to throw a baby temper tantrum and derail the whole process. Really, are you guys in kindergarten or did you actually graduate from college? Sometimes, the brainlessness exhibited here amazes me.

Once again, I write this not to debate the few children that populate this board but the normal thinking adults and those that may come here to read and never post.

Originally Posted by TheManager

Wow! Pot. Meet kettle. Kettle. Meet pot.

ALPA brings most of this on themselves. While the other groups that represent airline employees are taking action and communicating, Alpa is....not. Unfortunately that is the norm for them whether at the MEC level or most noticeably at the National level.

Even if they had sent an email, robo call, anything along the lines of "we are working with folks in DC so please sit on your hands and we will be back to you with details in ( fill in the time frame)" they would be ahead.

Communicating effectively is a basic and critical fundamental for any orgnaization, corporation, or relationship. To communicate effectively, information has to be able to travel up and down, be received and then be aknowledged.

When people and organizations in the chain of communication start looking at the others within the group with contempt, game over. ALPA won't survive in its current state if they do not address this.

Originally Posted by slowplay

How did Spackler get hired as a ninja? Was he:

1) Minority
2) Ex NWA employee
3) Intern
4) Women in aviation...the 69's or something like that
5) Hiring dept of old airline, therefore buddy buddy with NWA hiring peps
6) Some real good connections....

Originally Posted by TheManager

ALPA brings most of this on themselves. While the other groups that represent airline employees are taking action and communicating, Alpa is....not. Unfortunately that is the norm for them whether at the MEC level or most noticeably at the National level.

Even if they had sent an email, robo call, anything along the lines of "we are working with folks in DC so please sit on your hands and we will be back to you with details in ( fill in the time frame)" they would be ahead.

Communicating effectively is a basic and critical fundamental for any orgnaization, corporation, or relationship. To communicate effectively, information has to be able to travel up and down, be received and then be aknowledged.

When people and organizations in the chain of communication start looking at the others within the group with contempt, game over. ALPA won't survive in its current state if they do not address this.

Originally Posted by Jack Bauer

I couldn't agree more. The diehard ALPA defender/apologists try to build extreme examples to make it look like they are taking the intellectual high road. Unfortunately they don't seem to understand you can be assertive and make a point in public without "trashing" others. "Sulley" and Skiles strike a good balance...they aren't on some mad rant but rather a thoughtful, professional outline with the problem at hand. You can actually gain the respect of the public and those you are negotiating with when you handle yourself this way.

ALPA has formed such a staunch backroom, dealmaking attitude they have dropped the ball in their level of effectiveness with their constituents, the public and those they are trying to win over. Get real ALPA. You really don't know as much as you think you do and please stop assuming you know best simply because you say so.

Originally Posted by Sink r8

When you're perceived as being out of touch by your constituents, you don't blame the constituents, no matter how unreasonable they might be: you find a way to get the message across.

Originally Posted by slowplay

Or as in one of the recent classes a Navy F-18F pilot.

Sheez, you might even think that some of them got hired because of their qualifications?!

Heard that there are a whole bunch of (hours) qualified candidates applying, many with 4k-8k hours. Some of them don't quite get through the interview for various reasons (shyness, entitlement, attitude, previous history, etc).

How did Spackler get hired as a ninja? Was he:

1) Minority
2) Ex NWA employee
3) Intern
4) Women in aviation...the 69's or something like that
5) Hiring dept of old airline, therefore buddy buddy with NWA hiring peps
6) Some real good connections....