T Square,

Pro has some very valid points. The fence was part of the overall SLI construction and talking about bringing it down is pointless. The last AE may have been a fluke but look at the difference for an award between DTW 777FO and 747FO. It will be interesting to see how junior the Whale goes for future AEs if guys don't want to commute to reserve. Since there are no Block (Line) and Reserve distinction as we had and reserve percentages can vary throughout the year, it may be a QOL issue for some.

When RA says he wants to "build the network" it doesn't mean he plans to "grow the airline". With all the Code Shares, JVs and Alliances, I have my doubts on how much international growth we will have in the future. What incentive would there be to drop a fence if there are fewer slots to chase while having less pilots to compete over them?

Nevermind......

Probably a good idea... The fences are there, and they'll stay there iaw the arbitration. No sense arguing about it.

Just a few stats based on the last AE (the sen. numbers are a little old but the range will work):

Position Senior Junior Average
744A 5 2198 868
777A 1 2297 809
744B 1039 9410 5477
777B 561 8209 5341

You all can probably stop the flame bait about the fences. The seniority on the two fenced aircraft is basically the same, especially when you look at the averages.

ACL Posted there was some kind of deal coming from Boeing ref our 787 compensation, has anyone seen anything on this?

The "deal" has been coming for a while. Don't hold your breath. Maybe something will surface at Q4 reports, maybe not.

Today's Delta irony: I yellowed for a trip but got it on a green slip instead. Same pay since I'm way over guarantee, but pretty funny.

That is a very good point that's often overlooked in the superficiall rhetoric of "more pilots = good, period, end of story". The goal should be the most pay, QOL, scope and benefits for every pilot on property, not simply more pilots for the sake of more pilots.

As an extreme example, what if we limited monthly credit to 30 hours. Wouldn't that "require" more pilots? Of course it would, lots more actually. Wow, your seniority would more than double! Weeeeeee! Heck, a cap of 20 would be better! How about 1 leg, DH back, rest of the month off! Weeeeeeeeee!

But the cost to make that happen would strip a lot of pay and QOL as the "costs" of making that happen would be taken out of whatever the pilot group was able to negotiate as a total. So we all get 40,000 new pilots hired on to the bottom of our list, but take a huge pay cut and lose tons of benefits to pay for it. No thanks.

Look at it this way. How often has someone pointed out how we deserve SWA pay for narrowbodies? Or JetBlue pay for any type of 100 seater? After all, if they can fly those planes for that, by gosh we should be able to get at least that as well, right? Of course we should. But those carriers have very, very high productivity. Engineering schemes whereby we create the need for more pilots by spreading the existing flying thinner is extremely costly and we end up paying that cost.

If we had the ability to negitiate such a scheme, and were willing to sacrifice the negotiating capital to do so, then the only way it would happen is if we took it out of other areas and I don't think you're going to find a lot of support for that.

If we're looking for "restoration" or no matter what you call it, but several hundreds of millions per year (maybe a billion or more?) in additional pilot costs, who is going to fight for that to be spent on hiring more pilots to cover the exact same amount of flying? That use of money in a future contract is by far the most expensive item because its amplified by every other item. Pay raise per pilot, more retirement per pilot, better health care per pilot, etc...and more pilots to cover the same flying? That is simply bad and counter productive negotiating.

Let the hoe's fly as much as possible (and I'm a min sked more often than not kind of guy) because if we want a fat raise/restoration the last thing we need to be fighting for is massive additional pilot overhead to cover the exact same amount of flying. The only possible exception to that would be scope reclamation but that's apples : oranges as that flying is already being done by other pilot groups anyway and it should be being done by us, one way or another.

Gloopy, Very good post, it looks like someone has the large glossy.

I do not fly a lot either. I fly what I need to go hit ALV in a holiday month, like this month, and then I enjoy my time off.

Gloopy, you have some good points, but also add in that more pilots per seat equates to guys like you and I sitting flying min sked on a higher paying jet.

In all honesty the NPRM will add pilots and if the rules come out close to the proposed, they alone will be self limiting.

Firstmob, It there was a cash deal done with the 787 delay penalty, it would show up on the Q4 2010 numbers which will be published Jan 20, along with the the 2010 (year end) results.