Originally Posted by jetnwa (Post 921936)

T Square,

Pro has some very valid points. The fence was part of the overall SLI construction and talking about bringing it down is pointless. The last AE may have been a fluke but look at the difference for an award between DTW 777FO and 747FO. It will be interesting to see how junior the Whale goes for future AEs if guys don't want to commute to reserve. Since there are no Block (Line) and Reserve distinction as we had and reserve percentages can vary throughout the year, it may be a QOL issue for some.

When RA says he wants to "build the network" it doesn't mean he plans to "grow the airline". With all the Code Shares, JVs and Alliances, I have my doubts on how much international growth we will have in the future. What incentive would there be to drop a fence if there are fewer slots to chase while having less pilots to compete over them?

Originally Posted by Pro Fessional (Post 922060)

Not intended as flamebait. Not crying. Not whining. Just the facts. No need to call your mother. It is totally delusional to even consider dropping the fences.

Originally Posted by CVG767A (Post 921910)

So, should we man the airline year-round for that occasional winter weather event, and allow reserves to get 70 hours pay per month, while flying only 20 hours?

Bear in mind that we just had major storms in both ATL and NYC.

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 922042)

I get that. And we will hire, a lot, over the coming years and decades. What I don't think we need to do, however, is to force additional hiring to cover the exact same amount of flying just for the sake of hiring. Is there a seniority based benefit to hiring for the sake of hiring? Sure. But there is a cost to that that is proportional, and that price will come out of somewhere else anyway, negating the bump in seniority for sliding up to a slightly higher pay rate a little bit sooner than one otherwise would. Forcing extra hiring for the same amount of flying is expensive and will come out of pay, benefits, maybe scope and of course QOL elsewhere.

Some things will result in more pilots needed, such as the new flight time/duty time rules...assuming its not just a "hey let's gut the relief pilot positions to pay for slight improvements to the regionals" which I'm suspiscious it will be, but some needed improvements in reserve rules and other work rules as well. But we're kidding ourselves if we don't recognize that productivity is vital to each pilot getting as big of a piece of pie as possible.

If we even mention SWA narrowbody rates or JetBlue 100 seater rates in the negotiating room, management will fire back instantly that productivity is the reason for that, and to a significant extent they will be right and everyone knows it.

C12K will be an increase, and that increase will be substantial. The checkbook will be opened. Period.

How much we will be able to get will be applied to various areas. 50 million per year more? 500 million per year more? 2 billion per year more? Whatever the number is that we get, I just don't think spending that on fake mobility is the answer. If we can force raises by more hiring and therefore more opportunities to bid up, we can simply take that money and put it into additional pay rates, retirement, scope and work rules to begin with.

Originally Posted by Pro Fessional (Post 922060)

Not intended as flamebait. Not crying. Not whining. Just the facts. No need to call your mother. It is totally delusional to even consider dropping the fences.

Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 922097)

Gloopy;

I respect your opinion, but I cannot understand how you characterise Dal pilots as not productive. 80 hours a month equals 1000 hours a year. The FAA doesnt let us be any more productive.

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 922104)

I agree that the fences aren't going anywhere though.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 922111)

You know I honestly don't ever think of the fences, they're just as much a part of the here and now as the paint scheme, bases and the fact that don't let your girl see Newk in a double breasted uniform because you can't compete.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 922108)

Pre 2004 the average Delta pilot flew about 600 hard hours a year but generated just over 1050 hours of credit or pay.

Post Chapter 11 the average pilot is generating 800 block hours a year and generating about 1100 hours of credit or total pay. We are still well below the 1000 hours allowed. Very few pilots are hitting the block hour limits.

The increase from 600 to 800 hours per year of hard time was the big driver in the loss of pilot jobs at Delta. We should work in the next contract to get pay raises and get back some of those jobs.

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 922042)

I get that. And we will hire, a lot, over the coming years and decades. What I don't think we need to do, however, is to force additional hiring to cover the exact same amount of flying just for the sake of hiring. Is there a seniority based benefit to hiring for the sake of hiring? Sure. But there is a cost to that that is proportional, and that price will come out of somewhere else anyway, negating the bump in seniority for sliding up to a slightly higher pay rate a little bit sooner than one otherwise would. Forcing extra hiring for the same amount of flying is expensive and will come out of pay, benefits, maybe scope and of course QOL elsewhere.

Some things will result in more pilots needed, such as the new flight time/duty time rules...assuming its not just a "hey let's gut the relief pilot positions to pay for slight improvements to the regionals" which I'm suspiscious it will be, but some needed improvements in reserve rules and other work rules as well. But we're kidding ourselves if we don't recognize that productivity is vital to each pilot getting as big of a piece of pie as possible.

If we even mention SWA narrowbody rates or JetBlue 100 seater rates in the negotiating room, management will fire back instantly that productivity is the reason for that, and to a significant extent they will be right and everyone knows it.

C12K will be an increase, and that increase will be substantial. The checkbook will be opened. Period.

How much we will be able to get will be applied to various areas. 50 million per year more? 500 million per year more? 2 billion per year more? Whatever the number is that we get, I just don't think spending that on fake mobility is the answer. If we can force raises by more hiring and therefore more opportunities to bid up, we can simply take that money and put it into additional pay rates, retirement, scope and work rules to begin with.