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Quote:

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 957357)

Ts,

I'm sure this discussion is well underway in PM world, which is welcome by almost everyone. So, I will just say this:

When I brought up the point of the teachers salary, it wasn't to complain about the low salaries themselves (Ok. Maybe it was a little. :) ) But, mainly it was to point out that teachers and the people who know them find it offensive when someone says they make too much or are overpaid. The first sentence of that paragraph leads to where I was going.

If someone told you that you were overpaid, how would you feel?

(And I hope I can say this without upsetting you. But, we have had some discussions privately, so I know where you are coming from and I think you understand where I am coming from.)

If someone told you that your father was overpaid, how would you feel?

It's just not a good thing to say. It's not very objective either. Mainly, because the people who say it, normally don't know what pilots, teachers, or small businessmen do.

As far as the double standard of Rush and O'Riley? I wasn't asked to apply a standard. Buzz asked me to tell him what name-calling he did. That's all I did.

I've never said they were overpaid. I just see the reality of where this country is headed. I understand that you feel your mother was underpaid because of the educational quals she had, and in a way I cannot argue with you, but squint at this and tell me what color sticks out at you. My wife and I were having a discussion just yesterday about how she wishes somebody would have pointed her in a direction of education that would have allowed for a better paying job. (She was a graphic designer) So is it right for the teachers to expect the already overburdened taxpayers to continue to fund their entitlement programs simply because they are highly educate themselves? We all have selfish interests, and we.. I mean we airline pilots, have already seen where this thing can go. Maybe it's time for them to realize that the wound has enough of a scab to remove the bandage, and let the real healing begin, but the current way of doing business cannot continue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 957365)

I've never said they were overpaid.

You are correct that you did not say that teachers were overpaid. But, someone did and set Ferd off like a rocket. (I mean he was on fire. :) ) That's all I was saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 957365)

..... Maybe it's time for them to realize that the wound has enough of a scab to remove the bandage, and let the real healing begin, but the current way of doing business cannot continue.

Everyone agrees that the current way of doing business can't continue. everyone knows the deficit is unsustainable and everyone has to tighten their belts. (The Wisconsin workers have agreed to the governors financial demands.) But, the question is, can it continue with public sector workers having union representation?

I think the mods have let this discussion go on because it is an important question for us as members of a private sector union.

Personally, I think the country and states can function with having to deal with and negotiate with public sector unions. They have been doing it for a very long time. To me, to suggest that states having to negotiate with public sector unions is the source of our problems, is a complete cop out. Typical, of so many politicians nowadays, they want to blame everyone but themselves. They spent the money over they years and paying a teacher $70,000 after 40 years did not break their budget.

It's much the same way that we argue that it isn't pilots salaries that break the airlines budget, isn't it?

Public sector unions and their collective bargaining rights should not be targeted as the source of the problem because you as a tax payer pay the state taxes and want lower taxes, just as our union and collective bargaining rights should not be targeted when we negotiate with the company because customers pay the airline and they want cheaper tickets.

Until someone can explain to me in a meaningful way how (outside provisions of the U.S. Constitution) states have to treat public employees any differently than corporations have to treat employees when negotiating and bargaining pay and benefits, that is what I believe.

New K

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 957330)

Not the entire story though... when someone buys a ticket on SWA, they expect nothing other than point A to point B. No food... no service.. nothing.... and SWA delivers on that promise. good for them. When someone buys a ticket on DAL, they expect a choice of chicken or filet mignon, and is ****ed when they don't get it. Or numerous other similar things. What I wonder is how many people go to the SWA website to buy one of those cheapie tickets, and when they see there are no more to be had say "oh well, they are THE lowfare airline so I guess this is the best I can do.", and buy the ticket anyway. Meanwhile, they miss a better fare on another airline simply because they are too lazy to go anywhere else to shop. DO a little comparison shopping of your own if you don't believe me. DAL will meet or beat SWA on the vast majority of common routes. But it's brilliant marketing on SWA's part no doubt, and my point is that they have managed the public's expectations magnificently.... don't expect anything, you won't be disappointed... how could they not be number one?

I agree with you. I personally think the reason you can't buy a Southwest ticket on any other website is because Southwest does not want its prices side by side with other airlines. The reason is as you said. Southwest is not the cheapest. They do not provide much to their customers, but neither does Delta unless you're in first class on a flight over three hours. Southwest does provide free checked baggage though and no hidden fees.

What's the old saying??? Never start a land war in Asia and never start a fare war with Southwest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzpat (Post 957226)

What really matters is how warring brothers from different tribes adopt the same head dress and woolen garments and, concurrently, are willing to undergo "best practices" to launch aluminum cylinders into the spaces shouting "widget" as they go. THAT's what matters most. Especially, when "scheduling calls."

Buzz, my hat's off to you!
(don't tell the chief, I normally wear it)

Your words are the DNA of this thread!

Cheers
George

My wife taught public school for 7 years, has a graduate degree, and has elected to homeschool our 4 children. They're excelling based upon standardized test scores. She doesn't get paid...and she regrets having belonged to the NEA at one time because of their policies. We pay our property taxes that support our local public schools, which really are pretty good schools, we just elected to exercise the flexibility of homeschooling.

Back to Delta: what'll be the impact of this spike in oil prices in the near term, and how large will this next AE really be with the current training backlog and fall hiring for 2012?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoop (Post 957354)

T,

What does that say about our marketing? Why not a marketing blitz challenging SWA's supposed fare advantage?

I agree that a lot of people are indeed lazy, but It appears they just think SWA is cheaper and searching DAL and others airlines would be a waste of time. If SWA is not cheaper but the general public assumes that they are, then not only is that brilliant marketing on SWA's part, but extremely poor marketing on DAL's part.

Scoop

Isnt this what DAL is trying to change by getting de-listed from the ticket mills?

Step 1. Sell your own tickets.
Step 2. Market those tickets.
Step 3. Poke SWA in the eye.:eek: emoticon added for any SW readers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 957383)

You are correct that you did not say that teachers were overpaid. But, someone did and set Ferd off like a rocket. (I mean he was on fire. :) ) That's all I was saying.

Everyone agrees that the current way of doing business can't continue. everyone knows the deficit is unsustainable and everyone has to tighten their belts. (The Wisconsin workers have agreed to the governors financial demands.) But, the question is, can it continue with public sector workers having union representation?

I think the mods have let this discussion go on because it is an important question for us as members of a private sector union.

Personally, I think the country and states can function with having to deal with and negotiate with public sector unions. They have been doing it for a very long time. To me, to suggest that states having to negotiate with public sector unions is the source of our problems, is a complete cop out. Typical, of so many politicians nowadays, they want to blame everyone but themselves. They spent the money over they years and paying a teacher $70,000 after 40 years did not break their budget.

It's much the same way that we argue that it isn't pilots salaries that break the airlines budget, isn't it?

Public sector unions and their collective bargaining rights should not be targeted as the source of the problem because you as a tax payer pay the state taxes and want lower taxes, just as our union and collective bargaining rights should not be targeted when we negotiate with the company because customers pay the airline and they want cheaper tickets.

Until someone can explain to me in a meaningful way how (outside provisions of the U.S. Constitution) states have to treat public employees any differently than corporations have to treat employees when negotiating and bargaining pay and benefits, that is what I believe.

New K

I know I have.

It is important for this country and for this profession to understand all sides of the current debate happening in WI. I am from there and people are divided. I do agree that all agree the current way is unsustainable, and that change needs to happen. It is more fear of undoing something that has far reaching effects than anything else.

The reality is that companies, as well as local, state, and federal governing bodies are all debt owned. When that happens, the ability to continue the way we always have becomes unsustaiable. The reality hit the airline industry about five years ago, and continues across other industries. Shipping production off-shore was a short term fix. Now, the government at all levels has finally reached a point where it really cannot tax any more, cannot pay any more, and really should not borrow any more. A new reality will result from this. What it will be depends on many things, of which number one is, realizing that our debt burden has taken many options off the table. That 800lb gorilla needs to be dealt with and quick. Get the debts and deficits under control and more money becomes available to pay workers, and invest in capital improvements.

I am sure that Scott Walker would love to give every public worker what they want, I know I would, but the realities of the day are just plain ugly and severely limit the options. By-partisan work is a must for this to actually deal with the root issues. No matter what happens people will feel financial pain, and we as airline pilots should sympathize with it, even if we agree with it.