johnso29

If what Bar says has any teeth, it will surely be the end of ALPA. I'm just about done with ALPA, & changing the NC in any way this close to Sec 6 will push me right into the arms of DPA. It's time for the inner politics to stop. Let the current NC continue to work for the pilot group, as they were elected to do. This is a union for the pilots, not a good ole boys club for the politicians. You want that, go run for Mayor.

scambo1

Ah, there's a little truth in everything.

formerdal

This JV needs to be tightened up in a big way. Look at all the heavy metal Air Frog is putting on routes to the US(A380's) while we get ORD-CDG....gimme a break. I would put even money on the JV being skewed very heavily toward Air FRog this summer, everyone does realize that if the EKM's are out more than 1.5% from 50/50 the companies only have 1 YEAR to bring it back into balance!! I believe that should be changed to 30 days.

acl65pilot

ESK wise they are in compliance. Block wise we will always fly more, as AF flies larger metal.

Pineapple Guy

And do you think that's a bad thing?

I suspect when the AF guys and our guys negotiated the JV, the AF guys would have preferred a 50-50 block hour split. Our guys didn't go there. Seems like +1 for DALPA.

acl65pilot

To a point. Let me explain:

Just to add to the discussion and not to indicate my position:

If we had a longevity only based pay system it would be a huge win. It would mean that all of our A's would be paid at the highest rate, and with more block hrs, all Capt's would have the ability to hit the highest paying position. With our current system of pay, and AF flying the biggest metal, they save money with their longevity based pay and save money with our pay by longevity and type. Those jets on our property would allow more "Super Premium" paying positions, where now we have more 7ER slots that pay better than most, but in reality only pay marginally better than a 73N. I would like to see the comparison pay wise if we went to longevity based system, and assuming near top end pay for a Capt's versus what we have now.

Capt's will agree, they would care less about AF flying the 380 and 777's all over the world if they were all topped out on pay.

Just a point to ponder.

Job wise more block hrs are good for us, but when they stagnate pilots, or top them out on lower paying jets, I would call it a draw for those most effected.

formerdal

Seems hard to believe that they are in compliance with adding so much capacity and no indications of pulling it back while we will be cutting capacity substantially in short order. My point was that the way the JV is written it allows a very large ability to flex with no real hurry to get the balance back in compliance.

Yes our flying aircraft with fewer seats does require us to fly more metal and therefore more pilot jobs albeit in somewhat lower paying positions. Maybe that will all change when the ownership rules change and we all go to work for AF.

acl65pilot

The compliance limits are "Trade Secret" but yes, there is a good flux, and even when they go out of it, there is a corrective period. Even if they are out of the allowable limits, they are in the corrective period and can easily be back in with next summers schedule load. We may not like that, but the fact is that, as written they are in compliance. Because of the level of the draw down, we got a route or two from AF. That was to keep it with in the corrective limits.

I am not sure you will be able to tighten it up. The only way you will have a chance to amend it is if/when Virgin Atlantic is added, and that will take the balance well below 50-50 due to the metal they fly.

Check Essential

POS 96 was sold to the pilots with the promise of "unprecedented growth".
Nothing in writing. Just a promise.
ALPA and management pushed hard to get it ratified and it sailed through.

Don't underestimate the persuasive power of the company combined with the ALPA insiders if they decide to work together. They can get damn near anything passed via memrat.

Hopefully enough union guys have realized the truth about outsourcing and their views have "evolved", but --

If the union operatives and mgmt decide they want a scope sale, we're gonna get a scope sale.
And the membership will ratify it.

slowplay

I believe your analysis to be flawed. AF isn't our competition for flying. That was removed from the equation in the JV. The other two alliances and other airlines are our competition.

CMR and ASA have very similar payrates. All of CMR A's are at or near the highest rate, while many of ASA A's are not. CMR's pilot costs (and total labor costs across all work groups) are much higher than ASA's because of their comparitive longevity. So instead of growing like ASA, CMR shrank.

Unless flying at an airline with a unique fleet or training footprint (i.e. all 737, all Airbus), there is no truth to the "lower training costs" associated with LBP. Unless they are rostered by their company (which I really don't want), it only inverts the training pyramid as pilots get senior enough to hold desirable flying.

From a pilot perspective, LPB takes two factors in career decision (pay vs QOL) and converts them to one. That's great for the uber senior...not so much for the junior.

fwiw.