Sailing,

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth that just aren't there. At this point, I am just asking questions and am not going after you, my reps, ALPA, or anyone else.

If I were to go after someone, it would come in paragraphs, not sentences.

 

That may be true because most of their line pilots pack in the hrs to FAR max. Go look at the MIT statistics, and you can see the differences in block hrs per pilot per month. There is also a table in those charts that tells you how many more or how many less pilots you need to hit another airlines block per pilot numbers. (Last time I checked they did not break out the international block hrs and the staffing ratios for them, and because of this, the numbers may be slightly off)

What is reality, is most pilots that want to fly here, do, whether it be though trip parking, swapping or picking up. Therefore I suspect that our company would like to change our staffing model, but for all intents and purposes would not result in less staffing, unless you mandated a min hours per month per pilot. (No way)

What seems to be omitted here as well, is reserve pilots can pick up flying and pay, they have a better min day etc. If you really want to make the comparison and make it mean something we need to realize that a lot of our block time is with augmented crews; which skews the statistics, we have a DPA, not a min day and a SWA pilot does not fly a 10:30 three day, reserve pilots can pick up flying over guarantee, as well as many other things.

I suspect a Hourly rate of SWA+ a few points with a min day not a dpa, same pay for line holders and reserves, DH days count as a min day, etc, the W-2's would be extremely close.

There is only so much efficiency that a corporation can eek out of a pilot group. SWA's will go down with the FT/DT. Their pilots' ability to pick up will be cut in over half and their staffing model will be totally done away with. I think it is very dangerous ground to try to mimic their productivity when in most cases, pilots here work a lot more than they do. It is the multipliers that make the W-2's differ. Most line holders I know fly to ALV+15 and then GS if they can. We are our own worst enemies when it comes to this. It would be sold as no furloughs, but in reality the group could shrink as we retire.

SWA has a model that works for them, but remember that it has also undercut every other pilot group out there. It has forced other airline management teams to make the turnip bleed more, we do not really want to add to that.

 

I believe the MD88 is a valid comparison with SW and should be the baseline aircraft. I don't however get the math on your pay raise numbers. Going into the contract our MD88 rate will be 168 an hour. The SWA rate will be around 212 an hour. We get 4 percent more DC so adjusted that is just over 174 an hour. It takes about a 21 percent raise to get to SWA if you use the MD88 as a baseline.
I know your going to say they get so many more hours then we do. When you go to mediation you have to back that up. The facts wont support you. I got a kick out of guys using the SW pamphlet to the Airtran guys picking parts and then miss representing them. Here is a example. SW lines average 12 to 13 days a month. Very true. Delta lines are about the same on average. Good ones are as few as 9 days bad ones 15 or 16. Then they state the average Captain makes 226,000 a year at SW. Also true. The problem is the average guy does not do that working 12 to 13 days. That 226,000 number is because most SW guys pick up extra time as do most Delta guys. We had one guy compare the 70 hour reserve numbers with the average numbers at SW. Not a valid comparison. The average Delta pilots gets almost 1100 hours pay a year. Some a lot less and some a lot more but that is the average. That average also floats way up and down depending on staffing however it does the same at SW. Thats why there were so many upset FO's in 2009 at SW. No extra flying. The exact same situation existed at Delta. Big paycut for many guys.
I would like to see SW wages on the 88 as a baseline in this contract. In addition I would like to see some changes in work rules and sick and retirement. Sick leave needs to go back to the old policy. The current policy is purely punitive as a result of the grievance we won. Retirement needs to go to 16 percent. The reserve guarantee needs to go back to floating with the ALV. 23k needs to be changed so replacement flying comes after reserves are used but ahead of GS's. There are a lot of other small things I want improved however I also fear we get into a past contract syndrome where we open for so many items the process bogs down. American did exactly that.
I would like to see the MEC prioritize the top 30 items from the surveys and go to management with just those 30 items. That gets rid of any excuse from management to the NMB on why things are taking so long. They can't go to the NMB and say that we opened for 1156 changes and it takes time.

 

The reason you don't get it is because you're not making the same comparison I am. I'm looking at W-2. That is the metric that mostly determines the standard of living a pilot can provide for himself and his family. The DC contribution isn't a factor in that comparison. Also, I believe SWA pilots get a raise in between now and 2012 too. I'm making a comparison of how things stand today. Looking at 2012 shouldn't change the percentage much if any. The math is extremely straightforward. Our average rate (MD-88 and MD-90) for a 12 year Captain is currently $163. I am making the assumption that the average MD-88/90 Captain is flying 80 hours per month. I doubt it's any higher than that. From that point, it's a very easy comparison. The published number for pay for an average SWA Captain (note: not a 12 year Captain, just an average SWA Captain) is over $230,000. To bring our MD-88 Captain making $156,480 up to $234,000 requires a 50% increase. Simple math. Apples to apples comparison of FLIGHT PAY.

Your "facts" are inaccurate, sailingfun. Here's what the "SWA pamphlet" stated. Compare it against what you just wrote. You're wrong.
__________________________________________________ __

• Industry leading B737 Pay Rates. SWA Captains average over $230,000 and First Officers average over $140,000.

• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged 105 “Trips For Pay” (TFP) per month, or about 1260 TFP per year.

• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged just over 18 days off per month.

• Per Diem rates are among the highest in the industry: $2.15 per hour away from base.

• SWAPA considers our Duty and Trip Rigs to be the strongest in the industry, as they protect pilot productivity and efficiency.

• Minimum Daily guarantee is 6.5 TFP; Ex., a 3-day trip pays a minimum of 19.5 TFP.

• Duty hour rig is .74 TFP per hour, minimum.

• Reserve guarantee is 90 TFP per month; but actual
months pay average around 105 TFP.

• Reserves are allowed to pick-up extra flying.

• Holidays pay 150 percent.

• Open Time trips pay up to 150 percent.

• Junior “forced” assignment pays 200 percent.

 

You mean the MIT statistics from this guy?

"Prior to accepting his research position at MIT, Swelbar spent 25 years in the consulting world with a focus on airline labor cost restructuring..."

Why don't you ask RA and/or EB for their statistics too. I'll bet they'd be happy to provide you all the statistics you want that show how little we should expect in pay increases.

 

Then ALPA needs to recapture our DCI flying, so that we dont furlough 1500 pilots while we get SWA W2s..Has anyone ever thought about that?

TEN

 

False. Where is parity mentioned in the second quote?

 

The 18 days off is what they end up actually working after vacation, sick ect.. It also included several years where there was little overtime at SW. You can probably show that most Delta pilots work about the same. I would also bet the average MD88 Captain makes quite a bit more then 80 hours a month. Another poster just stated most guys fly ALV plus 15. I don't think that quite right but most are above the ALV. In addition there is pay for training, vacation, reroute, greenslips ect....
I know guys who did 400 hours in 3 months this year. Again when you go before the NMB the company is going to have the exact numbers. We will have to provide honest numbers or the NMB gets upset. You can bet your ___ the company will have the total block hour cost number highlighted in 12 inch letters. Again it was 690 an hour for Delta and 698 an hour for SW.

 

I don't want to work more. I want to work less.

 

I agree. I want the SWA W2 and work only 70-75 hours. THat is the KEY. WHats the point of making 200k working 100 hours a month, no thanks,

TEN