Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-06-2011 | 02:59 PM
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From: A-320A
I have a feeling that there are some discrepancies with multi-crew flights that make a block hour comparison very difficult to do. While MIT doesn't disclose how they do the math (that I can find) other data analyst that I have seen take the total hours and divide by 2.
The important page is THIS which shows that based on fleet makeup (narrow body vs wide body a/c) we are paid less than: SWA, Alaska, Continental, and JetBlue. Based on the fleet data I found we are even with are right behind AMR.
Again I believe that the Block Hours Flown and the high ASM crew cost likely have a lot to do with Delta's choice to fly a lot of multi-crew international flights and have little to do with anything you and I control.
The fact is that this international flying which makes our numbers appear higher actual makes more money for Delta, at least they claim it does. It certainly should not be used as ammo against us as it is a management decisions.
The important page is THIS which shows that based on fleet makeup (narrow body vs wide body a/c) we are paid less than: SWA, Alaska, Continental, and JetBlue. Based on the fleet data I found we are even with are right behind AMR.
Again I believe that the Block Hours Flown and the high ASM crew cost likely have a lot to do with Delta's choice to fly a lot of multi-crew international flights and have little to do with anything you and I control.
The fact is that this international flying which makes our numbers appear higher actual makes more money for Delta, at least they claim it does. It certainly should not be used as ammo against us as it is a management decisions.
09-06-2011 | 03:03 PM
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From: A-320A
That's the point I'm trying to make. You can select certain stats all day long to make the case against pay restoration. I would expect Swelbar to present stats that can be used to justify lowering labor costs. That is his specialty, and he does it pretty well. I just don't think it's in our best interest for you (or any of us) to take that ball and run with it. Let's spend more time making the case for restoration and less time spouting management's case against it. Seems like that would be more appropriate for what we're trying to achieve, don't you think?
The problem is not with how they arrive at the data, but what the airlines submit on their Form 41. I have been trying to get a true breakout of our augment ops as well as stage length for aircraft type, and to date no one will has that information in a public source.
In response to you last point, it is my belief that adjusted data will make our case. Form 41 data is where the problem is. Now you can take a bid package and do the math yourself but that is time consuming. I can venture to guess what it is base on our summer 2011 block hrs and active pilots that were line flying, but alas some of that data is not publicly disclosed, so posting that info in a no, no. ( I will say that my rough math puts our block hrs per pilot over that of a SWA pilot)
09-06-2011 | 03:26 PM
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From: B757/767
That's the point I'm trying to make. You can select certain stats all day long to make the case against pay restoration. I would expect Swelbar to present stats that can be used to justify lowering labor costs. That is his specialty, and he does it pretty well. I just don't think it's in our best interest for you (or any of us) to take that ball and run with it. Let's spend more time making the case for restoration and less time spouting management's case against it. Seems like that would be more appropriate for what we're trying to achieve, don't you think?
You mean like when SWAPA put together a 'welcome packet' for AT guys?
09-06-2011 | 03:45 PM
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Here are the stats SWAPA chose to include. I think they are particularly relevant. You see it differently?
_________________________________________________
• Industry leading B737 Pay Rates. SWA Captains average over $230,000 and First Officers average over $140,000.
• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged 105 “Trips For Pay” (TFP) per month, or about 1260 TFP per year.
• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged just over 18 days off per month.
• Per Diem rates are among the highest in the industry: $2.15 per hour away from base.
• SWAPA considers our Duty and Trip Rigs to be the strongest in the industry, as they protect pilot productivity and efficiency.
• Minimum Daily guarantee is 6.5 TFP; Ex., a 3-day trip pays a minimum of 19.5 TFP.
• Duty hour rig is .74 TFP per hour, minimum.
• Reserve guarantee is 90 TFP per month; but actual
months pay average around 105 TFP.
• Reserves are allowed to pick-up extra flying.
• Holidays pay 150 percent.
• Open Time trips pay up to 150 percent.
• Junior “forced” assignment pays 200 percent.
_________________________________________________
• Industry leading B737 Pay Rates. SWA Captains average over $230,000 and First Officers average over $140,000.
• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged 105 “Trips For Pay” (TFP) per month, or about 1260 TFP per year.
• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged just over 18 days off per month.
• Per Diem rates are among the highest in the industry: $2.15 per hour away from base.
• SWAPA considers our Duty and Trip Rigs to be the strongest in the industry, as they protect pilot productivity and efficiency.
• Minimum Daily guarantee is 6.5 TFP; Ex., a 3-day trip pays a minimum of 19.5 TFP.
• Duty hour rig is .74 TFP per hour, minimum.
• Reserve guarantee is 90 TFP per month; but actual
months pay average around 105 TFP.
• Reserves are allowed to pick-up extra flying.
• Holidays pay 150 percent.
• Open Time trips pay up to 150 percent.
• Junior “forced” assignment pays 200 percent.
09-06-2011 | 03:49 PM
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From: Guppy Commander
09-06-2011 | 04:03 PM
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From: Retired, again...
This is a bullet to the head of our QOL, manning, upgrades , etc. We are our own worst enemies in that respect, and that metric will never change until WE change.
For you young'uns, this is a marathon, not a sprint. 18 days of reserve for 70 hours is quite enough........Scope, work rules, then rates.
Nomex on,
BG
09-06-2011 | 05:17 PM
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From: 7ERB
Interesting. When I brought up the concept of LGBP, some of the resistance I got was that it would hamper guys from bidding a bigger airplane in order to make more money. For you to do what you want to do, we would have to institute a hard hourly cap again, because guys have become accustomed to flying 80-85-90 hours a month. If you think for one minute that when we get a raise that will allow you to make $200K in 75 hours that guys won't work 90 hours and make $240K, you are delusional.
Why the hell would any one in their right mind want to work above 75-80 hours?? Let alone above 70? I dont care what airplane I fly, as long as I get paid well and can afford 1 Cadillac a month.
I want to work less or about the same and make more. THere is a way we can achieve that, I know it.
TEN
PS. How many hard hours does a SWA 737 Capt. fly to make 300k?
How many hard hour does a SWA 737 Fo fly to make 180K?
09-06-2011 | 05:22 PM
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09-06-2011 | 06:14 PM
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From: A-320A
I understand that I am a Johnny-come-lately around DAL, but I am dismayed at the number of folks that are thrilled to work on their days off at straight pay......recently, another poster threw out ALV+15 as an average for our crews.
This is a bullet to the head of our QOL, manning, upgrades , etc. We are our own worst enemies in that respect, and that metric will never change until WE change.
For you young'uns, this is a marathon, not a sprint. 18 days of reserve for 70 hours is quite enough........Scope, work rules, then rates.
Nomex on,
BG
This is a bullet to the head of our QOL, manning, upgrades , etc. We are our own worst enemies in that respect, and that metric will never change until WE change.
For you young'uns, this is a marathon, not a sprint. 18 days of reserve for 70 hours is quite enough........Scope, work rules, then rates.
Nomex on,
BG
I think everyone would like work rules that would allow the pay they want with the time off they want.
Also, most of the "young'uns of which you refer to have been doing this gig for over 15 years. We are agree with ya.
09-06-2011 | 06:45 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
I understand that I am a Johnny-come-lately around DAL, but I am dismayed at the number of folks that are thrilled to work on their days off at straight pay......recently, another poster threw out ALV+15 as an average for our crews.
This is a bullet to the head of our QOL, manning, upgrades , etc. We are our own worst enemies in that respect, and that metric will never change until WE change.
For you young'uns, this is a marathon, not a sprint. 18 days of reserve for 70 hours is quite enough........Scope, work rules, then rates.
Nomex on,
BG
This is a bullet to the head of our QOL, manning, upgrades , etc. We are our own worst enemies in that respect, and that metric will never change until WE change.
For you young'uns, this is a marathon, not a sprint. 18 days of reserve for 70 hours is quite enough........Scope, work rules, then rates.
Nomex on,
BG
Last edited by forgot to bid; 09-06-2011 at 07:01 PM.
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