You're talking about the survey results. I've never advocated releasing the entire survey. But you could easily release a tantalizing summary of what this pilot group expects. More importantly, DALPA could release an even more tantalizing statement saying that management had better be reaching for their wallets. That of course is not happening. What IS happening is DALPA saying: "...we've heard you loud and clear." OK then.

I wish I could share in your optimism, but I can only go on what I've seen in writing. So far, I've only seen our Council 20 chairman state: "...and of course we will not be releasing the opener to the members. That would be like showing your hand in poker." Again, I've seen nothing to refute that statement.

That it does.

I don't follow you here. :confused:

Carl

Here's what you said earlier:

So we go from 47.2% to 50%, a gain of 2.8% and you call it a win.
Using the same criteria our current level of 46.0% must be a loss then, no?

We are below the level we were at when Alitalia joined and are forecast to stay there. That is a fact. Not only that, the numbers come from the very person that crafted the PWA language in question...

Obviously there has been a reduction of capacity, that's why we are looking at percentages of the production balance.

AFKLM/AZ has reduced capacity - lost some flying
Delta has reduced capacity even more - lost more flying

I really have a hard time believing your sincerity when you try to assert this is a win for us, what criteria are you using?

The best argument was that we are collecting IOUs at a rapid rate.
To bad we can't turn them in until 2014, and too bad there is a mechanism in place that throws away 2 years worth of IOUs if Delta flies 49.75% in the 12 months leading up to March 31, 2014.

How can you with a straight face say this is good for Delta pilots?
When we reduce flying it isn't a good thing for Delta pilots.
When we reduce flying more than our "partners" when we are already out of balance is really bad for Delta pilots.

We don't control much of the space airlines operate in.
We can't control WX, economies, earthquakes, disease or foreign competitors.
We have little control over the operation of Delta Air Lines.

About the only thing we have is the PWA.
When we then lose the contractual ability to hold Delta accountable for several years that is a bad thing. How can you not get that?

What if we lost our ability to enforce pay rates for several years.
What if our current pay was 1% lower than it was last year.
But we did get the promise that we'll get a 5% raise in 2014, would you consider that a "win?" because that's the argument you are making...

Seriously Alfa, "it's only 20% of our capacity" so that makes it ok?

I highly doubt you or anybody on the top floors at Delta even knows what the "end state" in 2014 will be. The company doesn't even know what the price of fuel will be in the coming months but they buy "insurance" by hedging fuel...

What's our "insurance" for JV production balance in the coming year?

Cheers
George

P.S. Since you seem to assert how poor my knowledge of the situation in Europe is i'd like to add that I grew up over there and my parents and half of my siblings still live over there, so I might know a thing or two about that.

ACL, I know you know this, but wasn't one key goal of LOA 16 in 2009 to capture downside protection by eliminating the annual shared growth enforcement mechanism of the AF JV and replacing it with the rolling three year compliance period starting April 2008?

Cheers
George

I don't know about you, but I'm kind of tired of living in interesting times.

I'll go on record first for taking this position, if AA fragments and we merge with all or part of them, we should treat their pilots fairly...bygones. We should also adopt their scope...Best parts of the contract and all that.

As you know, I said I didn't think AA would actually file, the stars were not aligning, from a legal perspective, for them to do that successfully. Now that they have, I fear their ride is not going to be fun.

Carl,

Fair enough.

Sailing,

There is no doubt RA is well compensated but that compensation is still way less than he would have made at United Health Care. The point argued is that RA motives are based on personal greed and his personal wealth. I'm refuting that by showing that if that were really the case he would have stayed at United Health Care.

Okay, personal ego. A topic we can all discuss with authority.:D

Man, I thought Delta's new commercials were good....

British Airways - Our advert 2011: To Fly. To Serve. - YouTube

Tebow? What about Cam? He just set the QB rushing/touchdown record in his rookie year at 13 and he's got a few more games to go...:eek:

That was great, it would be nice if ALPA did something similar when push comes to shove. :rolleyes:

Its not about the money, its about who is in charge...like Scambo said!