Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-19-2012, 01:19 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
Originally Posted by Wasatch Phantom
ACL,
From what I understand lately, Delta is frustrated by the FAA air traffic controller on-the-job training programs in Salt Lake. While I love flying out west, the SLC controllers are, in my opinion, the worst in the country (not sugar-coating it).
From what I understand lately, Delta is frustrated by the FAA air traffic controller on-the-job training programs in Salt Lake. While I love flying out west, the SLC controllers are, in my opinion, the worst in the country (not sugar-coating it).
(While on a needlessly complicated departure procedure with several "cross at" or "cross at or below" altitude restrictions)
SLC Dep: Compass, climb and maintain FL350.
Me: Climb and maintain FL350, is that an unrestricted climb?
(Silence)
Me: SLC, confirm unrestricted climb for Compass.
SLC Dep: Compass, delete speed restrictions.
Me: OK, how about altitude restrictions?
SLC Dep: Climb at maintain FL350, unrestricted.
This conversation would be excusable if it happened once. I've had a variation of it on every departure out of SLC for the last two weeks and have heard it play out with many other aircraft as well. You'd think they'd get the hint!
01-19-2012, 01:28 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by FmrFreightDog
Agree in principle, but in my and FTBs category, most reserves never get near 80 raw in the slow months. I'm mid-level reserve, junior if I bid weekends off. I see myself working a 4 day every week while the more senior reserves don't fly all month. Seniority needs to be honored, but not at the expense of junior guys flying 69.5 hours while senior reserves sit on permanent vacation. Adjusting the buckets to 30-40 point increments for fat categories would work much better.
Originally Posted by RonRicco
Well for one, I think it is a huge win as it gets us closer to what we gave away in LOA 46 and for that matter C2k. In the 1999 SOT we went back to high yellow without any regard for DOA. Now we still have DOA and are limited by buckets, but at least there is some seniority.
What's next? Taking away seniority for White slips? Cause you know those senior guys get all the good trips.
Huge win ALPA and thanks for listening to our input.
What's next? Taking away seniority for White slips? Cause you know those senior guys get all the good trips.
Huge win ALPA and thanks for listening to our input.
Seniority matters in reserve right now, last I check I bid for days off and I get them. I sit 30% on the list, I get everything I want off.
If the mission is not to work then I've scored that mission. I don't work and the guys senior to me really don't work. And I still see this as bad deal.
01-19-2012, 02:15 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: maddoggy dog
Posts: 1,026
I don't get it. Weren't we asking for seniority ranking for reserve? Now that we have it we don't like it? I'm an atl88b line holder that chooses to bid reserve. I like having superbowl and xmas off. With this new system, senior pilots may choose to bid reserve. This may leave a couple more weekends available for less senior line holders. Seems like we got what we wanted. What am I missing here?
01-19-2012, 02:28 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Delta M88 A ATL
Posts: 383
Originally Posted by JungleBus
This! An actual conversation that took place this morning:
(While on a needlessly complicated departure procedure with several "cross at" or "cross at or below" altitude restrictions)
SLC Dep: Compass, climb and maintain FL350.
Me: Climb and maintain FL350, is that an unrestricted climb?
(Silence)
Me: SLC, confirm unrestricted climb for Compass.
SLC Dep: Compass, delete speed restrictions.
Me: OK, how about altitude restrictions?
SLC Dep: Climb at maintain FL350, unrestricted.
This conversation would be excusable if it happened once. I've had a variation of it on every departure out of SLC for the last two weeks and have heard it play out with many other aircraft as well. You'd think they'd get the hint!
(While on a needlessly complicated departure procedure with several "cross at" or "cross at or below" altitude restrictions)
SLC Dep: Compass, climb and maintain FL350.
Me: Climb and maintain FL350, is that an unrestricted climb?
(Silence)
Me: SLC, confirm unrestricted climb for Compass.
SLC Dep: Compass, delete speed restrictions.
Me: OK, how about altitude restrictions?
SLC Dep: Climb at maintain FL350, unrestricted.
This conversation would be excusable if it happened once. I've had a variation of it on every departure out of SLC for the last two weeks and have heard it play out with many other aircraft as well. You'd think they'd get the hint!
I am just an 88guy, not flying the glass stuff, but what is your point? I don't see the problem with ATC in your statement...
What should they have said or done?
01-19-2012, 02:32 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by Sink r8
I'm amazed anyone is complaining about having RAW buckets that are too large. I assume this is because the complaining is done by pilots so junior they've never seen the old system.
The problem with the RAW system was that it abbrogated seniority, and prevented the flying from being assigned on a seniority basis. It's not just a question of whether one flies, but a question of how flying is distributed among those that have to fly.
The full Low AND High yellow system was so sweet that junior pilots couldn't always get reserve at all. This meant people could slip into lines sooner, and only a small portion of the guys would fly a lot, and those guys would quickly hit the limit, which was good for them (commuters would get done, and go home for the rest of the month), and good for GS opportunities for all.
The bottom line is that arguing for small RAW buckets is arguing for the company's objective, which is to have everyone come up at the same time, so noone benefits. You're saying it's not fair that anyone has a good deal, so we might as well all have... a RAW deal.
Please list me in the camp that says any RAW bucket, no matter how large, is always too small. We don't need no RAW buckets.
The problem with the RAW system was that it abbrogated seniority, and prevented the flying from being assigned on a seniority basis. It's not just a question of whether one flies, but a question of how flying is distributed among those that have to fly.
The full Low AND High yellow system was so sweet that junior pilots couldn't always get reserve at all. This meant people could slip into lines sooner, and only a small portion of the guys would fly a lot, and those guys would quickly hit the limit, which was good for them (commuters would get done, and go home for the rest of the month), and good for GS opportunities for all.
The bottom line is that arguing for small RAW buckets is arguing for the company's objective, which is to have everyone come up at the same time, so noone benefits. You're saying it's not fair that anyone has a good deal, so we might as well all have... a RAW deal.
Please list me in the camp that says any RAW bucket, no matter how large, is always too small. We don't need no RAW buckets.
Seniority should be in place to ensure you can work the trip you want when you have to work but not give you the month off while the guy 1 junior works the entire month in your place. Seniority with a line for the same amount of pay doesn't get you time off. It gets you the days and trips you want. On reserve it used to get you the days, and adding some weight for sc days and trip preferencing when you do have to work makes sense. I'm okay with bringing back a high yellow, add 15 points to your score, have at it.
But I am not going to champion a cause where one never has to work and others pick up his load for the same amount of money.
The way I see it this is like telling every pilot in a category that the top 5% will be paid ALV and have the month off because they're the top 5%, now carry on. Oh wait, except that the rest of you will need to pick up their work for no credit starting not with the plug but rather in reverse seniority order starting with Mr 50%.
01-19-2012, 02:43 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Quality and Craftsmanship since 1966
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by hoserpilot
The year they closed Mt. Baker to dig out the chair lifts was epic....1000 inches of snow!!! Left coast is the best coast.
01-19-2012, 02:55 PM
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Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 402
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Sink, seniority already buys pilots nearly 2/3rds of the month off. I haven't cracked 30 yet, and there have been only a few months this past year that i passed 80 and not by much. Meanwhile because of the way weekends are now staffed those guys routinely break 100-120 raw scores. Seniority is already in play and there are two buckets, weekends off and no weekends off which is rarely fly or always fly. Seniority does matter and it should.
Seniority should be in place to ensure you can work the trip you want when you have to work but not give you the month off while the guy 1 junior works the entire month in your place. Seniority with a line for the same amount of pay doesn't get you time off. It gets you the days and trips you want. On reserve it used to get you the days, and adding some weight for sc days and trip preferencing when you do have to work makes sense. I'm okay with bringing back a high yellow, add 15 points to your score, have at it.
But I am not going to champion a cause where one never has to work and others pick up his load for the same amount of money.
The way I see it this is like telling every pilot in a category that the top 5% will be paid ALV and have the month off because they're the top 5%, now carry on. Oh wait, except that the rest of you will need to pick up their work for no credit starting not with the plug but rather in reverse seniority order starting with Mr 50%.
Seniority should be in place to ensure you can work the trip you want when you have to work but not give you the month off while the guy 1 junior works the entire month in your place. Seniority with a line for the same amount of pay doesn't get you time off. It gets you the days and trips you want. On reserve it used to get you the days, and adding some weight for sc days and trip preferencing when you do have to work makes sense. I'm okay with bringing back a high yellow, add 15 points to your score, have at it.
But I am not going to champion a cause where one never has to work and others pick up his load for the same amount of money.
The way I see it this is like telling every pilot in a category that the top 5% will be paid ALV and have the month off because they're the top 5%, now carry on. Oh wait, except that the rest of you will need to pick up their work for no credit starting not with the plug but rather in reverse seniority order starting with Mr 50%.
We live in a seniority world......
Last edited by p3flteng; 01-19-2012 at 06:59 PM.
01-19-2012, 03:36 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
But I am not going to champion a cause where one never has to work and others pick up his load for the same amount of money.
The way I see it this is like telling every pilot in a category that the top 5% will be paid ALV and have the month off because they're the top 5%, now carry on. Oh wait, except that the rest of you will need to pick up their work for no credit starting not with the plug but rather in reverse seniority order starting with Mr 50%.
The way I see it this is like telling every pilot in a category that the top 5% will be paid ALV and have the month off because they're the top 5%, now carry on. Oh wait, except that the rest of you will need to pick up their work for no credit starting not with the plug but rather in reverse seniority order starting with Mr 50%.
I understand your concern, but here are some points to consider:
1) Under the old system, we needed 30% Reserves. Under the new system, 15%. The new system is far, far more efficient, from the company's standpoint. They absolutely hated paying four guys guys CAP-5 hours, where two flew nothing, and the other two flew max. So now they can replace the four with two at 70 hours. Beautiful.
Unless you're a pilot.
Would you like 15% more pilots?
2) Under the old system, the hierarchy doesn't start at 50%, where 50% and below has to pick up "someone else's work". 50% and below might fly more, but everyone along the list had the option to go high, or low, for any given day, any given flying. That ordered all flying, from 1%, to 100%. IOW, everyone, in seniority order, could try to hide from the crap, or go high for the juicy stuff. The bottom 50% flew more, sure, but then again, under the new system, the bottom 50% of Reserves, or the bottom 15%, are unconcerned with Reserves at Delta, because they're busy flying at ASA and Pinnacle.
You have to look at the effects of the entire system on staffing, and the way it worked before, when things were right, rather than worry about about who gets to have maggots in their rice now that we're all in a camp.
01-19-2012, 03:38 PM
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by p3flteng
Every category will be slightly different, why dont we settle down and see how it all shakes out for a month or two before we burn the house down. I am for injecting some seniority into the process, not at the point that the tops works zero and the botto works it all, but gentlemen....
We live in a seniority world......
We live in a seniority world......
) until something is done to lower it.
Originally Posted by hoserpilot
I don't get it. Weren't we asking for seniority ranking for reserve? Now that we have it we don't like it? I'm an atl88b line holder that chooses to bid reserve. I like having superbowl and xmas off. With this new system, senior pilots may choose to bid reserve. This may leave a couple more weekends available for less senior line holders. Seems like we got what we wanted. What am I missing here?
On a domestic NB the guy sitting at 50% will now be a new plug instead of just Mr. 50%.
Here's why. We both know that the way they cover weekends means that if you touch a weekend you fly. In fact on the 88 there were times there were 80 guys on reserve on Monday but they put out GSs the day before in clear weather.
So if it takes 50% to hold weekends off then come Monday the guy at 50% is #1 to fly. Thats the same as it is now, except whereas Mr. 50% would've flown and waited 2 or so weeks to fly again. But now Mr. 50% is now constantly Mr. Next for a minimum of 2 weeks and more than likely 3 weeks out of a 4 week month.
So 50% is the new plug in our system except even the plug got a reprieve as they worked. Now work that up, 45% is now like being 90%, 40% is like being 80%, and so on until 20% on the reserve list is not like being 20% but rather 40%.
This isn't a loss of QOL for junior pilots as they fly a lot anyways, this hits the pilots in the middle to top pretty hard that had some QOL. Hence, its interjecting seniority but ironically taking it away from a large percentage of senior pilots. That's why I don't like it, it gives to a few that already had a tremendous QOL and probably won't see a difference and takes from those who had a QOL. That's how I see it unfolding if bucket #1 is as large as 80 points. We've added seniority for a few and taken it from so many more.
Of course, it's my opinion but I've bid down to reserve now for 3 years now and I've had a pretty good QOL and pretty familiar with our current system. Needless to say that's ending for me and many around above and below me if those buckets are that large.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 01-19-2012 at 03:52 PM.
01-19-2012, 03:46 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by Sink r8
Thanks FTB,
I understand your concern, but here are some points to consider:
1) Under the old system, we needed 30% Reserves. Under the new system, 15%. The new system is far, far more efficient, from the company's standpoint. They absolutely hated paying four guys guys CAP-5 hours, where two flew nothing, and the other two flew max. So now they can replace the four with two at 70 hours. Beautiful.
Unless you're a pilot.
Would you like 15% more pilots?
2) Under the old system, the hierarchy doesn't start at 50%, where 50% and below has to pick up "someone else's work". 50% and below might fly more, but everyone along the list had the option to go high, or low, for any given day, any given flying. That ordered all flying, from 1%, to 100%. IOW, everyone, in seniority order, could try to hide from the crap, or go high for the juicy stuff. The bottom 50% flew more, sure, but then again, under the new system, the bottom 50% of Reserves, or the bottom 15%, are unconcerned with Reserves at Delta, because they're busy flying at ASA and Pinnacle.
You have to look at the effects of the entire system on staffing, and the way it worked before, when things were right, rather than worry about about who gets to have maggots in their rice now that we're all in a camp.
I understand your concern, but here are some points to consider:
1) Under the old system, we needed 30% Reserves. Under the new system, 15%. The new system is far, far more efficient, from the company's standpoint. They absolutely hated paying four guys guys CAP-5 hours, where two flew nothing, and the other two flew max. So now they can replace the four with two at 70 hours. Beautiful.
Unless you're a pilot.
Would you like 15% more pilots?
2) Under the old system, the hierarchy doesn't start at 50%, where 50% and below has to pick up "someone else's work". 50% and below might fly more, but everyone along the list had the option to go high, or low, for any given day, any given flying. That ordered all flying, from 1%, to 100%. IOW, everyone, in seniority order, could try to hide from the crap, or go high for the juicy stuff. The bottom 50% flew more, sure, but then again, under the new system, the bottom 50% of Reserves, or the bottom 15%, are unconcerned with Reserves at Delta, because they're busy flying at ASA and Pinnacle.
You have to look at the effects of the entire system on staffing, and the way it worked before, when things were right, rather than worry about about who gets to have maggots in their rice now that we're all in a camp.
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