The powers that be promised retirements and growth. Shame on us for believing them?

Or are you in the "all of you holding wide body FO positions got it "out of seniority" camp? (not a slam, just can't recall where you were on that debate).

No Bar, I'm not in that crowd. I think we have to face the reality that PMDL's international expansion fell off a cliff because of the global economy. The merger contributed to you losing your seat. That's undeniable IMO, but so is my point. I feel the end result of DAL & NWA going at it alone would have been worse. IOW, it kept us off the street.

The retirements are still out there, so that's not an empty promise. Growth from a merger though, is something someone should never believe. It defeats the entire purpose of merging. When someone gets liposuction, they don't keep the fat. They throw it out. So I just couldn't see us growing after we merged. Especially with the economy the way it is.

Not really shame on us, but the lack of due diligence on our part is a bit puzzling. Really if you look at it objectively, it was quite obvious that the city pairs that were being flown by USA in LGA were not going to instantly support mainline. We all got caught up in the euphoria.. Me included. I DO think though that if a good portion of those routes are not turned into mainnline routes it will be very difficult for the company to get the support of this pilot group like they have in the past.. JMHO

Never understood this kind of argument. What does "out of seniority" mean? It would seem to indicate some sort of shenanigans as to a person receiving a bid to a particular category. If it is in reference to, oh, say the company plug being on the 7ER, well... his seniority holds the airplane, therefore it is not out of seniority.

We were also told we would get "synergies" which of course is code for elimination of duplication or shrinkage.

Don't ask me, I can't remember where I had breakfast yesterday:D

But seriously, I think it's what most of us argued back then, ie we both turned out to be right in some but not all respects. It's more of a where question (vs a soup question). What Buzz and I can hold out east vs west vs what you're dealing with in ATL. It's a wild ride eh?

HaHa! I like the choice that said "try it yourself and see if you get the same reaction, perhaps she is being overly sensitive towards him"

Good stuff !

Bingo, what I was trying to say in my last post.

Opps, no cheerleading, man law violation:o

I might go with those ideas, if it wasn't for Virgin America, Allegiant, Spirit and Alaska growing, some of them like gangbusters. Delta has ceded the market in certain areas, resulting in reductions in the number of block hours we're flying.

Internationally, others are growing. We're gone on and on about EK, Qatar, etc. Yes, I can see the global economy isn't doing well, but parts of the world still need airlines.

Reality is that Europe business travel is to 2007 levels. Yes, there is the debt crisis but right now business travel is don't quite well.

Asia is dong very well also.

Carl,

We were 14.3% over staffing formula in 2010. We were 15.6% over staffing formula in 2012. That means we are overstaffed by about 100 more pilots now than in 2010.

The number of aircraft is not the defining metric, it is the amount of block hours they generate. For instance, a DC-9 produced much lower block hours per aircraft than a pretty new MD-90 does. I am not knocking the DC-9, but it should be no surprise that they were older aircraft that required more spares and more maintenance down time. Also, owning aircraft and having them in service are two different things. The 757 fleet especially has flexed up and down to cover other aircraft changes. We have over 100 more A-320 pilots now than we did in 2010 without purchasing one aircraft.

So what you call "goofy" I call facts. We are not slowly liquidating. We are not growing. Mainline block hours for the Summer of 2012 are 1% below 2011 plan which amounts to 110 pilots difference. The entire industry is adjusting to higher fuel prices and the fact that in order to cover fuel costs and make a profit, they have to charge higher fares. I think anyone who took Econ 101 can understand what happens to the demand curve as you have to raise prices.

If you really want to know what you're worth, take a look at what 'other' professions are paying. For instance, starting pay for ass't brand manager at Procter and Gamble is 130K per year (that's pretty much out of college folks). I also have a friend who sells Oreos to supermarkets and makes 160k per year. He drives around and sets up end of aisle displays...and takes Fridays off.

Its a joke what pilots are working for now and I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to make it a career. Especially when you look around and see what others with lesser skillsets are bringing home.

I don't think management could care less about the 'quality' of their pilots. They just want warm bodies who will tow the line. As someone said, technology can make up for a lot of shortfalls. Of course management will tell you that you are the best and brightest etc. etc. etc. , as pilots love to have thier egos stroked. But in the real world, this profession has bottomed out and the prospects don't look great for a rebound anytime soon.