Originally Posted by freightguy

You are partially correct. I don't think a DAL 320 captain will gain much by going to Tiger, Jetstar, Air Asia etc. But for DAL FOs, it is a different story. Many of us still qualify for some of the captain seats in the Far East and the ensuing pay which is close to three times as much as what I'm making as a widebody FO at Delta. Nobody is laughing at my NWA furloughee friend who turned down DAL for Tiger. He is doing pretty good. DAL management or DAL pilots can laugh all they want... he still makes two to three times more than his peers (in his seniority range).

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

The airline business has been in a negative stability loop in the last 20 years. The highs went higher and the lows went lower. 2003-2005 pretty much signaled that something had to change. Instead of making the business a high risk gamble, through consolidation and better balance sheet management, Delta is de-risking our business and producing a model that can generate consistent profits, which by the way will fund contract improvements. Part of this new rationality will be the lack of the explosive growth followed by furlough models we have seen.

Originally Posted by georgetg

Alfa, is it unrealistic to ask for de-risking our employment status and producing a model that can generate consistent seniority advancement while funding contract improvements? Or are those items mutually exclusive?

Cheers
George

Originally Posted by Check Essential

Yes indeed.
We are leaving the market and shrinking and the low cost guys are moving right in.

Wall Street Journal

FEBRUARY 16, 2012, 3:11 P.M. ET
UPDATE: Spirit Airlines Sees Capacity Up 23% In 2012 Vs 2011

• --Florida-based carrier's expansion provides a particular challenge to AMR Corp

--Spirit plans to add seven planes this year, boosting its fleet to 44
--Notched up its fifth-straight year of profitability
(Updates with executive comment beginning the third paragraph. Updates share price.)

By Doug Cameron
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

Spirit Airlines Inc. (SAVE) announced plans Thursday to accelerate its expansion, boosting capacity by 23% this year in a move that highlights the opportunities for U.S. low-cost carriers as larger network rivals shrink domestic flying.
The Florida-based carrier's expansion in cities such as Dallas, Chicago and Denver, and into the Caribbean and central America, provides a particular challenge to AMR Corp. (AAMRQ) as 60% of its network overlaps with the third-largest U.S. carrier by traffic.
With the three largest U.S. carriers--United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL), Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL) and AMR--all pledging to keep capacity flat or lower this year, smaller airlines are filling some of the gap.
Spirit grew capacity by around 15% last year, and the 23% expansion eyed for 2012 lags only the 30% growth targeted by Virgin America.
Ben Baldanza, Spirit's chief executive and a former American Airlines' executive, said on a post-earnings' call that he sees opportunities to expand profitably beyond those captured by its existing fleet plan.
Spirit plans to add seven planes this year, boosting its fleet to 44, and has around 100 Airbus aircraft on order for delivery between now and 2021.
Baldanza outlined the capacity plans alongside a sharp rise in fourth-quarter earnings, notching up its fifth-straight year of profitability and an operating margin of 25.7% that leads the industry.
Net profit in the quarter rose to $24 million from $9.5 million a year earlier, with revenue up 26.7% at $273.9 million, driven by higher ticket prices and its focus on charging for extras such as bags. The result beat analysts' expectations.
The stock recently was up 0.3% at $19.29.
-By Doug Cameron, Dow Jones Newswires; 312-750-4135; [email protected]

Originally Posted by tsquare

How do you know this?

Originally Posted by tsquare

You gonna eat crow if it DOES get released? OR are you gonna find something else to be critical and divisive to cry about? Nevermind, I know the answer to that.

Originally Posted by tsquare

And one more thing... What if the opener that DOES get released isn't what Carl thinks is sufficient? Buuuuut, it represents the desires of the pilot group..

Originally Posted by tsquare

We all know that you think the whale should only work on sunny Wednesdays and pay $1000/hour, but what if the pilot group said.. in the surveys.. that the whale and the 7ER should pay the same? (Read banded payrates)?

Originally Posted by tsquare

You might get to see the opener, but you have little idea of what goes into that opener too.

Originally Posted by tsquare

So maybe the surveys SHOULD be released.. what would say if they are, and you don't have as much leverage as you think?

Originally Posted by johnso29

I'm actually shocked that anyone on this forum thought DAL would do anything other then shrink once the merger was complete. Organic growth after merging 2 airlines(which was done to reduce capacity and increase pricing power) would defeat the purpose of the merger in the first place. I'm still pleasantly surprised we made it through without furloughs.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

I know this because the only thing that's been in writing thus far is the Council 20 chairman saying: "...and of course we will not be releasing the opener. That would be like showing your hand in poker." There has been NOTHING from the MEC to counter that statement.



I won't need to eat crow because it's not MY statement. It is the statement of the Council 20 chairman and the MEC has said NOTHING else to the contrary. If the MEC ultimately decides to share the opener after it's exchanged with management, that's great. It has always been that way. But this time will be different. Of course, not even the company will be able to see our opener until after the meet and confer sessions with the MEC's of our RJ competitors. Wonder when that meeting will be? Wonder what will be said?



How would any of us know what the desires of the pilot group are? DALPA will never release those survey results.



You know nothing about me. I'm fine with pay banding. We already have it. The B747 is 250,000 pounds heavier than a B777 but the pay is the same at Delta. If we get more pay banding, it's just more of what we aleady have.



I don't have "little" idea what goes into the opener, I have NO idea what goes into it. None of us do, because DALPA will never release any portion of those survey results.



Then it is what it is. I'm not afraid of the truth, DALPA is.

Carl

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

Carl,

We were 14.3% over staffing formula in 2010. We were 15.6% over staffing formula in 2012. That means we are overstaffed by about 100 more pilots now than in 2010.

The number of aircraft is not the defining metric, it is the amount of block hours they generate. For instance, a DC-9 produced much lower block hours per aircraft than a pretty new MD-90 does. I am not knocking the DC-9, but it should be no surprise that they were older aircraft that required more spares and more maintenance down time. Also, owning aircraft and having them in service are two different things. The 757 fleet especially has flexed up and down to cover other aircraft changes. We have over 100 more A-320 pilots now than we did in 2010 without purchasing one aircraft.

So what you call "goofy" I call facts. We are not slowly liquidating. We are not growing. Mainline block hours for the Summer of 2012 are 1% below 2011 plan which amounts to 110 pilots difference. The entire industry is adjusting to higher fuel prices and the fact that in order to cover fuel costs and make a profit, they have to charge higher fares. I think anyone who took Econ 101 can understand what happens to the demand curve as you have to raise prices.

Originally Posted by RCD73

I agree to the spirit of your post.

My point was that if you are going to make a comparison that shows a potentially superior package for a DAL FO, then make it as accurate as possible. The Air Japan commuting contract remains one of the best and the average FO at DAL fills the minimum requirements for a Capt or F.O position. The Emirates package is attractive for some. My only problem with ACL's characterization was the fact that it was one dimensional.

Parc Aviation Recruitment and Resourcing

Regarding the Tiger package. You are quoting the top pay scale for Capt. Look to the left of the payscale numbers and you'll see the words; "Capt top". You'll need 500 PIC on the A320 and Singapore is one of the most expensive cities in the world. Although, a nice rental house on a Thai beach is only a short commute.

Tiger Airways jobs, payscales and entry requirements.


I hope DAL pilots return to an industry leading package in the next contract.

Originally Posted by tsquare

I'm tired of discussing this with you Carl. You're just a broken record with a bunch of donut talking points. So if we get a crappy contract, I will blame the donuts and TC and the disunity they have caused. You can blame DALPA.

Flame on by yourself.