Slow,

I didn't define "respectable, but I would categorize "Go Jets" as less than respectable. I don't think very highly of Republic, either.

In my quick research I did not "cherry pick" but rather used examples of carriers that I was pretty sure operated CRJ-900 aircraft or the E-190. I just went to APC and looked at the numbers they had listed.

IIRC Compass was started by NWA during their bankruptcy and there were flow agreements in both directions. It's my understanding Compass applicants interviewed with NWA as they would eventually become NWA pilots. This is just my opinion, but DALPA "screwed the pooch" with the way they handled Compass.

The DALPA attitude of "It's a really complex cost equation and you're not smart enough to understand..." is the type of arrogance that I really resent, and one reason why I support DALPA's ouster.

Value of the Brand
 

We are always talking about our High Value Customers - their is a value to having control of the brand. How much do we lose by one of our HVCs having a bad experience at the DCI carriers (whether it's a gate agent, bad maintenance, poor FA's, or a poor crew). If that happens at DAL then if they complain then at least we can identify a weak area and fix it. What do we do if it happens at a DCI carrier. Marketing firms will tell you how expensive it is to attract a new customer (I'm talking an HVC - not your scour the internet, cheapest price leisure customer). How many of AT's former Platinum Flyers are we going to get when SWA eliminates 1st class? Let's factor that into the cost equation (there are ways to figure this out).

Bingo. However, management would rather keep their RJ outsourced leverage than ticking off innumerable hvcs who leave for greener pastures. They know that once they give up their leverage, even if it costs them a ton of money, the pilots will never give it back. 50 seaters will be here longer and in greater numbers than most would hope.

Slow,

You are missing my point. Lets be consistent. Its only the real world at the DCI level? AMR, UCAL and USAIR will somehow not prohibit our ability to get a pay-raise in section 6, but the DCI carriers you mention will not allow anyone to pay a higher rate on that equipment ever? You say pattern bargaining works both ways - is that except for DCI which will always and forever go down?

IF DALPA can bargain up mainline rates (and at times has) why do you showcase some bottom feeding DCI carriers and declare it a lost cause concerning DCI?

No one is saying costs do not matter. We should all agree we are constrained by the current environment, and maybe the 70 seater economics will not presently work at Delta but what about the E190?

Scoop

You misunderstood what I said.

My metric is pilot rate ie: lets say $125/hr divided by the passengers (76)= x

747-400 is $380ish/hr divided by 400 passengers = y

I dont see a 60% disparity

Too bad we don't have some type of a big National Union with some stones and political clout, that would set a pay floor, or some type of system wide, minimum pay and benefit scale, that would prohibit the whipsawing we've been watching since ALPA signed it's first B scale contract, back in 1985.

Instead we had to wait for the FAA to set the floor for anyone flying passengers in a Part 121, scheduled Airline type operation, as having to hold an ATP.

What a concept.

Where was ALPA in demanding this, many years ago, when the first RJ's started showing up? But today, all they have to do is piggy back onto this new Reg. and say; "We fully support the new 1500hr. ATP rule, and to that end, since you are going to have to be hiring a more experienced, higher rated pilot, who has invested more time and money into his own training, we will now enact a "Minimum Pay Scale" for all ATP Pilots, starting with the 50 seat RJ's, and that minimum rate will be $100/hr. (or something greater) for first year Capts. and $70/hr. for first year F/O's, and go up from there, for every year of greater experience these pilots will have to offer."

Where's all my ALPA PAC money going anyway??

I'll do the math for you Scambo:

First, I'll solve for X, so that's $125/76= $1.644 per pax.
For Y we have, $380/400= $.95 per pax.

So from the above, X over Y, 1.644/.95= it's 1.73 times MORE EXPESIVE to fly them on the 76 seat RJ...or if you like it expressed the other way round, .95/1.644= 57.78% cheaper to fly them on the 747.

Lasers, #1 priority crewpass, FFDO, etc.

We have no E-190's operated at any DCI carrier and our contract would not allow that to happen. Putting that rate into the equation is not a valid comparison. The question was asked specifically about operating DCI jets at mainline and my answer was correct. For the record my comparison used Comair, Skywest, ASA, Compass, and Pinnacle (new combined contract). I didn't use Republic/Chautauqua because I had bad data at the time (it was too low), but if you add them in there is no appreciable difference.

Secondly, I did not make any mention of comparing seat counts, revenue available, or any of these other metrics because that is not the question that was asked. If you want to do that analysis then you are going to a whole other range of analysis and that is one that would take months.

As I said in my original post, it is impossible to even lay out simple facts without it devolving into some assumptions about what direction the pilot group should take. The facts are that without changes to our contract (concessions) the crew costs of operating a CRJ-900 at mainline are much higher than at DCI. Add in your idea of what pay/benefits increases are coming in this contract and the comparison just gets more difficult.

Now for additional head work, look at the an airline that is hiring 600-700 pilots per year. Pick a fleet size of CRJ-900's, your pick, and count up how many pilots are there assuming a crew complement of 4.5 crews per jet. Then figure out the career progression of a new hire as he has the choices of fleet and seat that exist at Delta today. What is the chance that a 12 year pilot would choose a CRJ Captain job over narrow body captain or even A-330/747/777/767-400 F/O? Now just start backing up that career path, not at our current airline, but at the airline that is cycling through 600-700 pilots per year. A pilot will be halfway up the seniority list at 10 years, assuming Delta doesn't grow.

The pilot group can decide which way they go, I make no assertion on what that direction should be. If you want to have a discussion based on facts then at least get the facts right. The first assertion was that we haven't done analysis, it was stated as fact. When the analysis is shown, then now we are even worse because the facts don't match your preconceived notions. Seriously, it's hard to please you guys.

There is that precedence from CAL/COEX also