capncrunch

It's called fear mongering and other tired tactics...

Seems like SF is back into the sales pitch mode.

kiteflyer

Sailingfun and Bucking bar---you are both right on.

Bucking Bar

Sailing,

• My post dealt with the bankruptcy and concessionary negotiations, which I address as follows:

When ALPA, the Judge and Company Attorney used the word "credits" to describe the quid pro quo for scope concessions, what did they mean and where did these "credits" go? Alpha and I had it out on this and he finally gave in stating "I forgot they used the word "credits" " during the BK hearings.

The hearing records indicate those credits were used to offset demands for concessions in other parts of the contract.

Further, our contract is an amalgamation of the NWA PWA and they were clear that their scope concessions which gave birth to Compass were used elsewhere to balance concessions. So even if you were somehow able to prove Delta's hands were clean, you've still got to consider NWA's actions, which they promoted in writing (Zipline 10-18-04).

No union yet has pushed to test on whether a Judge will set aside non pecuniary job protection provisions in a bankruptcy. American may be a precedent setting case (and I looks as though I may lose the argument) but until then it is factually correct to maintain that labor protective provisions have been held sacrosanct unless negotiated away by the Bargaining Agent.

• As for C2K:

Giambusso and Pinho led ALPA against unification of Delta, when Delta acquired all the formerly independent code of Atlantic Southeast Airlines. ASA was an acquired airline and arguably henceforth a single transportation system after its code was acquired.

Never heard Pinho's thoughts, but Giambusso clearly made his decision on the basis of preserving the quality of Delta's pilots and a career path for his friends in the military. Those are noble thoughts, but they are not the thoughts of union leadership.

The results of the decision against unity are self evident. Even if "management was against it" from a union perspective, the fight for unity should have been made.

• In general

... if we did not trade scope for pay, What did we trade it for? Please don't tell me we got "nothing." Admitting incompetence is worse than admitting malfeasance in this instance. I'd at least like to think my job is worth something to my Bargaining Agent (I mean more than $2,100 a year in dues).

I know you hate my term "scope sale" but the record supports its usage and it has resonated with our pilots to the point that it is now part of the popular lexicon and serves its intended purpose - to pressure our MEC to stop trading in scope.

Further the term helps direct our pilots' focus in the correct direction. The DPA wrongly blames ALPA National for our scope losses and if they are successful in the promotion of this error, ALPA's gone (at least from here).

At the end of the day, I want to improve the excellent union and administration we have here.

Bucking Bar

Make them Delta pilots as part of the JPWA ... complex, we can't tell you, we can fly MD88's but we can't figure that out, attorneys say so, but if we did that Comair pilots would get Date of Hire ... problems all vanish.

Unity = Making problems disappear for pilots since 1931

Ferd149

Bar, as usual, I agree with what you say about Compass.

The only thing I would add to your discussion, that Sailing doesn't address, is the Compass issue was the only party line vote (there may have been one other but I can't think of it) between premerger MEC members to date. So, I would argue, there was more to the discussion than what Sailing reports.

Compass and the length of the bankruptcy contract was why I voted no on it. That flying was ours, and when they traded/sold it or what ever you want to call it.......those became our guys. I'm glad we were able to preserve the flow for them but..........

Bucking Bar

It's OK to quantify.

They lost longevity and potentially job security. We lost jobs, the corresponding representational relevance and set the outsourcing bar a bit higher by weight & capability.

I would like to know what, if anything, we got for it.

Bill Lumberg

This is called "managing expectations.". They opened up contract talks early, meaning they want something. That could be labor peace, or whatever. That is called leverage also. DALPA must use it correctly, or face possibly getting replaced. Plain and simple.

Ferd149

Very good point, I need to remember that!

I would like to know too, but of course that is compartmentalized information and we don't have a need to know or the proper security clearances

gloopy

They didn't lose longevity because they never had it. They had the same two choices then as they have now: go to DL and start over or stay at CPZ if you want to keep your longevity. I know you want outsourced RJ pilots to be able to come to mainline at full longevity but that's never going to happen unless we fix scope first and get those seat and weight ranges back and eliminate the number of allowed outsourced airframes. Until then, no RJ pilot is ever going to slide over to DL at top scale with full YOS credits.

As for job security, they could have been sold at any time. Although we did give up the "we demand a DC9 replacement" (whatever that was going to end up meaning) so in that respect we did give up something of theoretical but unproven and unknown value.

As for representational relevance, all that looked like was yet another DFR suit waiting to happen.

You're right about the weight limit being set a bit higher but regardless of what happened with CPZ, the flow (which was kept) or their place on the DL MEC, we had already sold that flying to management. They were part of 255 large RJ's 153 of which can be over 70 seaters. Nothing would have changed that, even if they were on our MEC today.

Its messed up in many ways, but we need to bring the flying back first. Its ours and we own the claim to it; no one else. Unless and until we take it back on our end, it really doesn't matter what MEC represents a low bidding ACMI provider, other than it makes it a little harder for them to sue us now I suppose.

Bucking Bar

Sorry, can't help it. Wish I had been at KJFK this morning: